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A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

randomcriticalanalysis.com

61–70 of 79 posts

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US healthcare system is not a free market. The pricing system--critical to any free market--is broken when it comes to healthcare. Customers are unable to shop on price (even for non-emergency care).. but also the AMA limits the number of doctors; and hospitals require a certificate of need (giving competitors a veto over new businesses), for example. It isn't just that we spend more... if that was the only issue…

A post from RCA's blog a year ago addresses that more directly: https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2018/11/19/why-everything... He argues very convincingly that high income leads to high health care spending very directly. Not only is the US not an outlier in terms of inefficiency, but he can't find any compelling examples of countries significantly improving on health care spending predicted by actual household inco…

First time I hear of RCA, I will have to read the analysis to evaluate, and it might already have been addressed, but ...

a) many (perhaps the majority, don't have time to source now) of the bankruptcies in the US are due to medical issues and spending, and at least 75% IIRC of those going bankrupt from medical spending HAD insurance. This is practically unheard of outside the US.

b) The rate of growth of US spending on healthcare, especially government spending on healthcare, far outstrips the rate of growth of money / wages / any other measure of something that can pay for it.

c) The same medicines by the same manufacturers and often the same production lines (not just equivalents or generics, which are much cheaper still!) often cost 10-100 times more in the US than they do in other places. The DaraPrim and QuestCor cases are famous for being outliers, but they are only outliers in the speed of price increase, not in the fact that prices in the US (but not outside the US) keep going up irrespective of costs.

It was not until I lived in new york that I heard gainfully employed people say things like "I have to stitch my cuts my self because I cannot afford medical care"; neither could I understand George Carlin's "dirty doctor" joke.

So perhaps the overall spending/GDP analysis is not direct proof, but the US medical and healthcare system is very, very sick. Karl Deninger at the https://market-ticker.org has been documenting these atrocities very dilligently since 2007.

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#62
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you the original author? Have you done an evaluation on the financial consequences of both healthcare systems as well? Do people suffer medical bankruptcies at similar levels in our peer nations?

Yes, I'm the author of the blog (RCA). No, I haven't studied this narrow question, though it's somewhat tangential to the arguments I've advanced (outcomes; prices; aggregate costs; etc). I have, however, seen several studies that suggest "medical bankruptcies" have very little to do with medical debt and much to do with the effects of their health on their employment/earned income (also similar patterns in Canada an…

Going back to comparison between US and its "peer nations" though - I would imagine in this group of countries the concept of medical bankruptcy is largely unknown given that many have socialised healthcare.

For example I'm sure there are people in the UK who have turned to the private sector for treatment and in doing so incurred debts which resulted in bankruptcy. But that's such an exceptional unusual concept I'd be surprised if it occurred more than a handful of times in any given year.

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#63
post #50

The blog Random Critical Analysis has made a good argument that Americans spend so much on healthcare simply because Americans spend so much on everything. Healthcare isn't exceptional in this regard. If you replace the usual GDP per capita measure of income by a measure of actual individual consumption, the US lies right on the trend line, just with higher healthcare spending and higher overall consumption than ever…

I think he hasn’t sufficiently explained the curvature in this graph: https://i2.wp.com/randomcriticalanalysis.com/wp-content/uplo... Drawing that curved line is crucial for making the US appear to be on-trend. If you simply use a linear correlation — which seems more reasonable from first principles — you reproduce the US as an outlier, albeit with a slightly smaller z-score. We do see a good fit on the log-log plot…

1, I can fit the US on a linear trend amongst high income countries.

2, there’s no necessary reason why increasing health share with rising real income is unsustainable. We can and have increased share spent on health while increasing real expenditures across the board.

3. I touch on some reasons why this may curve up and then eventually flatten out.

4. No, not everything fits on log-log slopes and us is very close to the trend.

https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2019/12/03/no-means-no-th...

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#64
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that there's very little to suggest US healthcare is uniquely ineffective. There rapidly diminishing returns to health spending and US outcomes are badly handicapped by factors like obesity and homicide. Maybe try actually reading it though?

"Maybe try actually reading it though?" Your first sentence is "In the popular telling, there is a strong and reasonably constant relationship between health spending and life expectancy.". My comment was that I am not aware of this being the popular telling. But instead from what I can tell most people agree that the US doesn't deliver better results despite much higher spending. Otherwise I think you have dug up a…

it IS a popular thing, only here on hacker news I've read at least 10 articles on this issue, i.e. that US is wasting money on health.

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#65

This starts with saying that there is a popular telling that the more money a country spends the better life expectancy will be. Especially looking at the US I thought most people know that US doesn't get much value compared to the money spent. Was that really controversial?

I think the controversial idea is that the USA healthcare system is operating on the same efficiency curve as other developed nations. That is to say, a socialized healthcare system with the same spending is unlikely to provide any improvements in life expectancy.

I think you're drawing a slightly wrong conclusion. The point is not that the US system is actually nearly as good as others, the point is that other factors make it look much worse than it is (as far as the metric of life expectancy is concerned).

If those other factors were corrected, the comparison could be made fairly. Maybe it would turn out to be good enough, and maybe it would not.

> That is to say, a socialized healthcare system with the same spending is unlikely to provide any improvements in life expectancy.

Few countries actually have a wholly socialized healthcare _system._ The UK and Canada do, but it's a completely different stories in other developed countries. In France the health insurance system is mostly socialized, while delivery (doctors, pharmacies, hospitals ...) is mostly though not entirely private. In Switzerland and Germany, if I remember correctly, insurers are private but operating similarly to utilities in the US, i.e. within strict government guidelines.

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#66
post #56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop posting misinformation about the AMA. It does not limit the number of doctors. The actual bottleneck is in residency slots, and the AMA is actually advocating to increase funding there. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-fun... Most patients are able to shop on price. The majority of insurers now provide web sites where their members can obtain estimates of out-of-pocket expenses for…

Bullshit. Trying to get prices from an insurance company requires hours of time, researching individual billing codes, and at best leads to a ballpark guess.

That's not true. Most insurers allow you to search by text and see an accurate estimate of what you would pay at each provider. Such features aren't universal yet but the majority of patients have access.

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#67
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US also has "programs" and generally spends more on preventative medicine. Further, actual medical evidence suggests medicine doesn't have good treatments for obesity (getting people to lose much weight and keep it off), save the surgical inventions (which aren't used often enough to explain much). It's also clear that obesity rates are rising throughout the developed world despite rising spending. https://i1.wp.com/…

> US also has "programs" and generally spends more on preventative medicine. These programs are often implemented by insurers with already healthy populations, such as large corporations. Hardly the populations that medicare supports. It's not surprising that Microsoft has good support for smoking cessation (and spends lots of $$$), but a mother of two working multiple jobs has no such access or funding. > Further, a…

One can come up with a narrative to support almost any argument. The question is, do you have data to support it, is it credible, and how much can it actually explain? The truth is richer countries tend to be significantly fatter countries and countries are getting fatter, even though these same countries also spend significantly (increasingly) more money on healthcare and a variety of other social services. These are empirically verifiable points that actually explain things and make quite a lot of sense theoretically.

The high average caloric consumption in the US is likely substantially explained by our income levels. Humans are not genetically adapted to living in an age of cheap, plentiful, readily available, and highly palatable food. Above and beyond high average income levels and particularly affordable food prices, countries also differ in a number of other dimensions. For example, it's quite clear the US escaped the malthusian trap long before most of Europe because of the ample amount of fertile land settlers had at their disposal. Americans were taller and fatter than Europeans in Europe long before the development of the welfare state. This is also verifiable. It's quite possible such differences lingering effects on dietary preferences, serving sizes, and other variables that impact food consumption.

Further, there are clearly large spatial differences in the United States and they're unlikely to be well explained by the sorts of policy you mentioned. Parts of the US settled by people that migrated from periphery of the UK (Scotland, N. Ireland, Wales, and Northern England) suffer from these issues much more than most Americans and more than can be explained by observables like income, education, and the like. This residual also seems to play out in the UK today

https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d508.full.pdf+html

I've done my own analysis and found this maps well to genetic population structure (not yet published), but whether this is genetic or some sort of subtle cultural phenomenon is a different question.

While I'm quite skeptical that existing non-medical programs of that sort have significant effects (evidence?) or even vary nearly as much as you seem to believe (US affluence has implications for purchasing power of all households, even allowing for somewhat higher inqequality, and size of welfare state often underestimated), I think you need to explain how it is that these higher income, higher spending countries with larger welfare states achieve results no better (probably somewhat worse) than much poorer countries.

https://i1.wp.com/randomcriticalanalysis.com/wp-content/uplo...

Also, you should probably also be able to explain why it is that socioeconomic gaps in life expectancy and other health outcomes are probably at least as large in Finland, Norway, and the like.

https://twitter.com/RCAFDM/status/1203715358152167424

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#68
post #62
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm the author of the blog (RCA). No, I haven't studied this narrow question, though it's somewhat tangential to the arguments I've advanced (outcomes; prices; aggregate costs; etc). I have, however, seen several studies that suggest "medical bankruptcies" have very little to do with medical debt and much to do with the effects of their health on their employment/earned income (also similar patterns in Canada an…

Going back to comparison between US and its "peer nations" though - I would imagine in this group of countries the concept of medical bankruptcy is largely unknown given that many have socialised healthcare. For example I'm sure there are people in the UK who have turned to the private sector for treatment and in doing so incurred debts which resulted in bankruptcy. But that's such an exceptional unusual concept I'd…

The point is that almost all of what people have termed "medical bankruptcy" has approximately nothing to do with healthcare costs. It has to do with income/career disruption associated with their health, so these issues play out to a similar degree in other countries for similar reasons.

While I can believe there is somewhat higher variance in the US system in terms of bills/prices/etc, which sometimes affects people meaningfully, it's also worth pointing out that out of pocket costs aren't unusually high in the United States. I mean, we might have a slightly larger problem with these, but that's much more of an implementation detail in terms of who pays and how much than the sort of top-down policy proposals some people seem to believe are necessary (because they've badly misdiagnosed the situation or are ideologically blinkered)

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#69
post #58

> The problem is GDP is not even particularly a good proxy for the income of households (individuals). GDP is designed to measure how much value add is produced within domestic (territorial) boundaries. It usually does a fairly decent job of this, but it does not directly tell us about the household perspective, as in, the average level of real incomes or real consumption enjoyed residents of a country (a.k.a. “mater…

I (RCA) have been meaning to dedicate a blog post to this topic exclusively and quantify the root causes in considerable detail.

In short, yes, I believe globalization and, specifically, multinational corporations (affiliates of foreign owned corporations) are the primary cause. However, in regression terms, this has less to do with net income flows into the US than net income flows out of several small high GDP/person countries. The US is a very large, very rich country whereas many of these countries are much smaller so it doesn't take much to have outsize affects on them. Even if 100% of this ultimately accrues to the benefit of US households, (which I don't think is quite accurate) the effect in % terms is vastly different.

Although some of this can be directly observed as primary income flows in the current year national accounts (dividends, rent, etc), some of it shows up as gross savings or disposable income in the foreign affliates, i.e., it's equivalent to retained earnings. Over the past decade or two non-financial corporate savings have increased massively and these savings are largely uncorrelated with domestic (capital) investment, i.e., it's almost entirely financial and it's largely leaving these countries in the form of net lending. These things also influence the calculation of (GDP) PPPs and cause other headaches.

Of course, there are also other reasons why GDP misleads. For example, Luxembourg has a very large non-resident workforce. Something like 50% of their workers live in neighboring countries (varies year to year), meaning ~50% of aggregate employee compensation goes home (cross border) to Germany and the like. Then there are petro-states like Norway whose income flows are inherently temporary (finite amount of natural resources to extract) and highly volatile, meaning they can't consume out of their measured GDP like most other countries. They need to practice massive consumption smoothing if they don't want their standard of living to crash in the not too distant future.

Long story short, GDP was never intended to be an indicator of material wellbeing and the household perspective (consumption, disposable income) are better measured and more reliable. One might try to throw a bunch of variables in to counteract the many issues imposed by GDP as a proxy for the household perspective, but why bother?

~ RCA (sorry for typos, grammatical errors, etc... limited time to comment and would rather focus more effort on blog)

Re: A tale of two covariates: Why OWID and company are wrong about US healthcare

#70
post #63
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he hasn’t sufficiently explained the curvature in this graph: https://i2.wp.com/randomcriticalanalysis.com/wp-content/uplo... Drawing that curved line is crucial for making the US appear to be on-trend. If you simply use a linear correlation — which seems more reasonable from first principles — you reproduce the US as an outlier, albeit with a slightly smaller z-score. We do see a good fit on the log-log plot…

1, I can fit the US on a linear trend amongst high income countries. 2, there’s no necessary reason why increasing health share with rising real income is unsustainable. We can and have increased share spent on health while increasing real expenditures across the board. 3. I touch on some reasons why this may curve up and then eventually flatten out. 4. No, not everything fits on log-log slopes and us is very close t…

1. You didn’t.

2. Asymptotic growth towards 100% certainly sounds unsustainable.

3. You mention Baumol’s cost disease and the proportion of income spent on services, which is not so bad.

4. Log-log overfitting is a well-known phenomenon and a low deviation (particularly at the edge of the graph) doesn’t make it go away.

5. This claim, tucked between historical spending and nurse salaries, underpins much of the thesis, but is curiously unsubstantiated:

>Nor do we tend to find results consistent with this in wages, profits, and other proxies for (or presumed causes of) such issues in these sectors. On the contrary, the reliable statistics for healthcare (at least) shows prices have fallen relative to average nominal income and that most of the increase is therefore explained by rising real consumption (quantities per capita).

Healthcare prices are kind of the whole point here. The lower third of this country can’t afford essential care. Not only that, but we’ve seen the prices, and they’re ridiculous.

So if you have data about healthcare prices not being out of order, that seems a lot more relevant— and less cherry-picked — than the history of household spending on food consumption.

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