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Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

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Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#291
Press Release:

[Will be sent out to media. Thanks to those who are commenting here for useful bits of information that has been included.]

Verizon Media/Yahoo closing down Yahoo Groups, with imminent loss of important history.

Yahoo, now owned by Verizon, is in the process of partially closing down a two-decades long service, Yahoo Groups. This email list-serve/bulletin board is both a discussion platform and a repository of history for a large array of communities. Verizon intends to make all such history unavailable after December 14th of this year, having provided less than 2 and a half months of warning and, due to a broken system, having failed to alert numerous group owners and members.

Some of the histories on this platform are important, not just to the early Internet, but even to academic research and scientific investigations. Examples are discussion groups that included WW-II veterans, many of whom are now deceased; queer and trans groups, some of whom have organized to try to preserve this history [1,2]; and minority/immigrant groups [3]. Those with scientific data include earthquake researchers, medical/biohacking groups, bird watchers with decades of data, and even material relevant to patent claims. Popular culture groups devoted to art have uploaded their works there, and fan-fiction groups exchanged stories and feedback [4]. Sadly, Verizon has not made arrangements to help people to preserve this material. This has resulted in individual Yahoo Group owners/moderators, most of whom do not have technical backgrounds, scrambling to find ways to download their archives. Yahoo claims they have provided a data exporter, but it is very incomplete. Groups include not only messages, but files, databases, calendars and other materials. Some more technical users have organized to take requests, crowd-sourcing the work to download these Groups. One such [4] has been in contact with the Internet Archive, with the objective of uploading whatever they can get to Archive.org. Unfortunately, for reasons we can't guess, Verizon has been actively obstructing these efforts [5]. We urgently request that if Verizon will not support efforts to preserve this material, then they at least allow some means that Group owners can download complete archives of their groups, and independent groups can download public Groups. For this, we also need more time.

Support can be offered by spreading the word on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Hacker News, and other social media.

Verizon can be contacted at:

    "Hans Vestberg, Chariman & CEO" 

    "Guru Gowrappan, Executive VP & group CEO, Verizon Media" 

    "Ronan Dunne, Executive VP & group CEO, Verizon Consumer" 

    "Tami Erwin, Executive VP & group CEO, Verizon Business" 
Ways to support the projects listed in the links below may be found on their websites.

Please contact the following people for further information:

[For people here, just go to IRC as described in the link of the OP.]

[1] Queer Digital History Project: https://queerdigital.com/ygpresproject

[2] Project to Archive Trans Yahoo Groups: https://archivetransyahoo.noblogs.org/list-of-known-trans-gr...

[3] Project to Archive South Asian American yahoo groups: https://yahoogroups.southasianamerican.org/

[4] Archive Team archiving Fandom but also taking requests from group owners: https://archiveteam.org/

[5] Exchanges with Yahoo: https://modsandmembersblog.wordpress.com/2019/12/08/verizon-...

Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#293
Call For Action

https://modsandmembersblog.wordpress.com/taking-action/

Don't miss the sidebar with these links:

https://modsandmembersblog.wordpress.com/media-contacts/

https://modsandmembersblog.wordpress.com/contacting-verizon-...

https://modsandmembersblog.wordpress.com/contacting-verizon-...

Also, you can add these emails to the media contacts:

  "Reporter Katyanna Quach" ,
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    "Pitches, Culture" ,
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Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you could be the one to raise it on the Slack channel and (even better) get some eyeballs with authority clued in on the matter.

Seems risky at this point, since they’ve already posted here. Probably better to wait quietly and report.

Why would it be risky? Surfacing an issue that is important to the public, where future/planned actions by the company could become a PR debacle sounds important.

Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply way too much work. Dying projects generating no revenues don't get the luxury of having tens of people assigned to work on them.

How is it too much work to tar up that shit, put it on a big ass drive or two, and ship it to them? I can't imagine it's that hard.

You mean, "tar up" multiple databases across possibly multiple data centers + all related files uploaded to those groups (also possibly spread across multiple datacenters) while preserving full integrity and making sure that there's accompanying documentation on how to set all this up and run?

You tell me how much work it would be.

Compared that too pulling the plug and getting servers over to a landfill.

Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#296

The lesson here isn't to run a hail Mary effort at the last day to save Yahoo Groups. The lesson here is to backup things you care about before they start to disappear. Is this stuff so important if not one of millions of users thought it was worth putting effort into saving? Yahoo's takeover/shutdown was announced years ago.

Inertia. I'm connected with a series of groups and I tried to get people to move for years. It just doesn't seem anything happens except under pressure.

Also, the scripts really have been developing during this last 2 months, which is all the time they gave us when they said they'd be deleting all content. Until then, I didn't see anything that would get me all content including files/links/calendars/databases.

Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#297
I have trouble understanding how Yahoo's moves are GDPR-compliant : if just one European citizen was part of the group to be archived, at least some if not all data in the group can be considered part of their personal data (as they were either sender or recipient of messages) and therefore there should be a mechanism allowing them to download that data. Am I getting it wrong ?

Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#298
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right, but (our main concern) is that the archives are being deleted. With no further history being recorded, it's utility for some purposes is limited. I have also come across some complaints that even as a list-serve it can be problematic. Posts, for example, are no longer coming in order.

But as a mailing list, each subscriber has the entire archive, at least from the date they joined. And any one of them can make it publicly accessible at any point in the future. In practice it will undoubtedly result in the destruction of enormous amounts of human knowledge, but at least in theory not much is getting immediately lost.

The difficulty in a lot of cases is finding someone who has a complete copy of the group. Yahoo Groups also had file, photo and database features, and archives of those are likely to be incomplete. You'd have to go through the member list (primarily early members) and find someone who still had a copy of all the messages.

The other problem is making it available - I ran a Yahoo group for many years, and have Mbox and Maildir format archives. I'm still looking for a decent web-based browser for these. HyperKitty (Mailman's archive browser) came close, but seems to require most of Mailman to be installed in order to work.

In my case, I managed to archive a bunch of groups related to amateur radio -- and I will be placing these on archive.org as soon as I have a spare moment to zip them up. A difficult-to-access archive is better than no archive at all, the important part is getting the data into a safe place.

Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#299
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any recommendations for a good replacement site?

A lot of people are going to groups.io, but I certainly wouldn't want to suggest anyone move to another centralized system. The best thing to do is probably just to get a VPS and install phpBB or something. For group owners, importing our Yahoo archives there is going to be the next task.

Yeah, a PHPBB forum on a random VPS run by a random user has a much higher chance of surviving..

Re: Verizon/Yahoo Blocking Attempts to Archive Yahoo Groups – Deletion: Dec. 14

#300
post #25

And this is the dangers of relying on a private, corporate, for-profit law-bound organization. They're susceptible to abiding by the laws and of course, there is a cost attached to all of this. Exploiting a free resource, as we all do these days (reddit, youtube, facebook, hackernews itself etc) is all well and good but maintaining history is expensive (content needs moderating, you are required to abide by the GDPR…

We can still read Fidonet messages decades after BBSs died. The power of decentralized networks.

I'm curious where you'd find these -- do you have any links to Fidonet archives?

It's been a while since I looked, but I didn't find anything significant last time I did.

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