Live data from Hacker News

Learning to code vs. learning to automate

daedtech.com

81–90 of 190 posts

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#81
I fully agree, but I still think it's good that people learn how to code. Why? Because it's good to know a little bit -- just a wee little bit -- about how computers work. And while you could just get a good description from a book, nothing beats hands-on experience, which is easy (and mostly fun, initially) to get when it comes to coding.

I think of it as learning a little bit of math or science -- good for your general understanding of the world, and how the thing that is your interface to most of the world operates, it's basic functions and limitations. It's even a bit like learning civics or economics -- as code makes more important decisions every day, a naive yet fundamental understanding of omgow these things work among the general population helps a lot. Everyone should learn how to code a little bit as part of a general education. If you want to do it professionally, then yes, learning problem solving and automation is the way to go.

And it would be nice if people practiced a tiny bit of debugging, so we could see fewer horror tales from tech support.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#82
post #52

When I was younger I dreamed up an idea of a shock suit, basically it would have been a set of long underwear top and bottom with electrodes that would act like a TENS machine to gently(or not so gently) nudge the wearers into performing a repetitive task with machine accuracy. I figured this would be great for an assembly line and could provide a cheaper alternative to a very costly robot while still providing emplo…

I bet you could take the capital/development/money from developing that suit and instead put it towards reducing the cost of the robot it's designed to compete with.

There would be several advantages to a suit over a robot over and above cost.

Ability to do an unlimited number a tasks without major retooling would be one.

Minimal maintenence and upkeep would be another.

Thinking abit more about it, there would be more uses other than just automating labour.

I could see a suit being very usefull in a training situation such as learning to dance using the suit then when muscle memory kicks in the suit can be taken off. (This is simmilar to the utube video link posted in the comments)

How about for snipers? With the suit on a sniper could hold steady on a target.

Then theres the whole tele-presence surgery idea.

IMHO the most important thing is it creates a symbiotic relationship with humans and automation rather than getting rid of the human.

All that said I kniw a suit is a pipe dream but maybe a long sleeve glove that allows you to pick up a pen and draw a computer generated picture might not be that far out.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#83
post #71

The problem often isn't ability to automate. It's that the workers closest to the problem have an overwhelming disincentive to automate. Suppose I have a low-level job in Peloton operations. Our Phalange Team must ensure that, before a bike's in-home delivery date is confirmed, the delivery technician has placed an internal order for a left phalange. Each of us spends all day navigating between the Sales app and the…

>4. If I successfully automate it, all of my coworkers lose their jobs. A failure of capitalism when less work and more productivity is a bad thing.

Why is that a failure? I didn't know every job had to last a lifetime.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#84
post #83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>4. If I successfully automate it, all of my coworkers lose their jobs. A failure of capitalism when less work and more productivity is a bad thing.

Why is that a failure? I didn't know every job had to last a lifetime.

If capitalism wasn't systemically geared towards creating an underclass of unemployed and desperate part time workers it might not be a failure.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#85
post #71

The problem often isn't ability to automate. It's that the workers closest to the problem have an overwhelming disincentive to automate. Suppose I have a low-level job in Peloton operations. Our Phalange Team must ensure that, before a bike's in-home delivery date is confirmed, the delivery technician has placed an internal order for a left phalange. Each of us spends all day navigating between the Sales app and the…

>4. If I successfully automate it, all of my coworkers lose their jobs. A failure of capitalism when less work and more productivity is a bad thing.

Very true. My brother lost his job at Blockbuster when they closed down. Since then he hasn't been able to find a job. When I mentioned to him that unemployment is at a 50 year low and maybe now would be a good time to try again to find a job he was dismissive. He went on to explain to me how due to capitalism he will never work again. Now I can't stop worrying that I'll lose my job and never be able to work again.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#86
post #83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>4. If I successfully automate it, all of my coworkers lose their jobs. A failure of capitalism when less work and more productivity is a bad thing.

Why is that a failure? I didn't know every job had to last a lifetime.

it's a failure because that condition was one of the reasons that he did not automate his job. A success of capitalism would be if it provided some incentive to automate the job.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#87
post #85
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>4. If I successfully automate it, all of my coworkers lose their jobs. A failure of capitalism when less work and more productivity is a bad thing.

Very true. My brother lost his job at Blockbuster when they closed down. Since then he hasn't been able to find a job. When I mentioned to him that unemployment is at a 50 year low and maybe now would be a good time to try again to find a job he was dismissive. He went on to explain to me how due to capitalism he will never work again. Now I can't stop worrying that I'll lose my job and never be able to work again.

I really have a hard time believing that after your brother lost his job at Blockbuster (10 years ago?) that he will 'never work again'.

On top of this, Capitalism is what continues to create new jobs, and ensures, for the post part, that you will be able to find another job if you lose your current one.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#88

The problem often isn't ability to automate. It's that the workers closest to the problem have an overwhelming disincentive to automate. Suppose I have a low-level job in Peloton operations. Our Phalange Team must ensure that, before a bike's in-home delivery date is confirmed, the delivery technician has placed an internal order for a left phalange. Each of us spends all day navigating between the Sales app and the…

In my company, each engineer spends about ¼ of their time building or improving tools for sales, marketing, support, or operations. Notice the preposition “for” there.

I think the flaw with the scenario you described is that your programs are “replacing” these peoples’ “jobs”, when, in reality, we’re building tools that empower them to perform their jobs more effectively.

In the case where we create a self-service option for our customers, such that they no longer need to call in, our ops friends are grateful that we’ve removed a tedious task from their day to day work. From my POV, internal users are as much our customers as external users are.

Of course, there’s a fine line between “empowering” and “replacing”. As our tools become more powerful, we need fewer hours to do a greater number of tasks, so ops’ headcount can scale sub-linearly with the number of tasks they need to complete.

While that gives us a business edge, it also means that we can invest in making our fewer people more generally-skilled, so that we avoid the case you describe (where a person’s job description is encapsulated in a single task, which is eventually automated away). We can also afford to pay them well, and their work is generally more varied and interesting. It’s a clear win for those on the inside.

The only losers are the hypothetical 100 or so unskilled people we’ll never hire or invest in, because our existing 100 are adequately supported. I don’t know a solution to that problem, but it can’t be to hire 200 people and give them terrible tools.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#89
post #2

To paraphrase a famous quote on regular expressions: "Some people, when confronted with a problem, think 'I know, I'll automate.' Now they have two problems."

What would you prefer? Manual is hardly an option.

Manual is often the best option. I worked for a company that was hell bent on automating a booking process and minimizing the number of humans involved until they realized how much many people preferred having a human guide them through different parts of the process.

They hired 100x as many call center workers as they thought they'd end up needing and sales skyrocketed.

My (largely younger, tech savvy) friends are always slightly shocked to hear this story - because they didn't appreciate having a human guide them.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#90
I really like the breakdown sequence of "Automation in real life" because it nearly perfectly describes the process I go through to evaluate if something is worth trying to build.

Introducing the "would someone pay for this" is a key step because it tells me if it's worth pursuing even if I didn't need it myself. The answer is almost always no.

Further, the majority of these small automations increasingly look like they are feature improvements on existing products. This example is also perfect because it was a feature within Powerpoint that would probably take the Microsoft Office team a day to prototype [1] and a few months to build into the next update with backward compatibility etc...

So to me the value at the outset isn't in the code, which is fairly trivial, but the value is in knowing what to code and how to integrate the new automation.

Here's where this breaks down though...you can't evaluate what you should be building and how it would be built, if you have no idea how to build something. So it is important to learn to code, if only to understand how hard it is to do different things. That holds true for everything though, from making a meal to fixing a carburetor or doing braids. You need experience doing things before you can know how to estimate whether they are worth doing in a new context.

[1]Something like...

#Compute centroid of rectangle:

>self = (coord[0]+(coord[2]/2), coord[1]+(coord[3]/2))

#Compute centroid of background rectangle

>other = same formula

>#Align

>def add(self, other): self.x = self.x + other.x self.y = self.y + other.y

Post reply on HN