The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers • Hacker News Board

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#161

Post by lostgame » Sun, Dec 08, 2019, 6:52 PM UTC

aibara wrote: post #134

chrischen wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn’t remove it. They just ended updates for it so you couldn’t also use an updated console AND have linux support. Software isn’t free, so I people are over entitled if they expect lifetime updates.

Which crippled the console, because you couldn't play games online without updating. And if that wasn't bad enough, soon after you couldn't even play new games offline. I used my PS3 as a backup computer when I was at school (came in handy when my laptop died), so I didn't update it. When I bought Dark Souls, I found out I couldn't play it.

This makes sense. New games could rely on API changes in software. It happens all the time for me as an iOS developer, and we have to make an educated decision on which OS versions to support and which ones not to.

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#162

Post by lostgame » Sun, Dec 08, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

grogenaut wrote: post #20

MrMember wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never buy another Sony console again after they removed the ability to run Linux on the PS3. It's one of the reasons I bought one and I used it a lot.

Do you buy Microsoft or Nintendo consoles? If so why?

I buy Nintendo consoles due to the quality of the software and hardware.

The Nintendo DS, at the time, was unparalleled in terms of software quality, and, while not as portable as a Game Boy Advance, was compatible with my existing GBA collection, allowed me to wirelessly play; and even eventually play online, with friends, and offered an almost dauntingly large library of quality software.

This was before the days of the iPhone, and while I did have a Windows Phone at the time, it never could have, and certainly did not, have the library of software, or hardware design, to consider it a valid console. Being a PDA and a phone was more than enough at the time.

I played ‘Halo’, of all things, on my PowerBook G4 back in the day, saw that as the driver to XBOX, and couldn’t have cared less.

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#163

Post by grogenaut » Sun, Dec 08, 2019, 7:01 PM UTC

lostgame wrote: post #162

grogenaut wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you buy Microsoft or Nintendo consoles? If so why?

I buy Nintendo consoles due to the quality of the software and hardware. The Nintendo DS, at the time, was unparalleled in terms of software quality, and, while not as portable as a Game Boy Advance, was compatible with my existing GBA collection, allowed me to wirelessly play; and even eventually play online, with friends, and offered an almost dauntingly large library of quality software. This was before the days o…

But both of these companies are hostile to Linux... Why would you buy anything from them?

Is it worse to try and fail than to never try at all?

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#164

Post by grogenaut » Sun, Dec 08, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

monksy wrote: post #149

grogenaut wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a legitimate beef or problem with someone, you don't take illegitimate and illegal actions against them. I'm all for reverse engineering. That's fine. Extorting a company by threatening them with release of an exploit if you don't get your way is not legitimate, that's blackmail or extortion. All of the hackers attacking Sony for months, disabling PSN, is not legitimate, and should never have been suppo…

> illegal actions against them What's illegal about reverse engineering a physical product you sell to someone? > Disabling psn Are you kidding me? The PSN was notriously insecure. Sony didn't give a crap until they were embarassed.

Read my post.

Reverse engineering legal and to me moral.

Extorting a company with a threat of release of a thing to get what you want: extortion and illegal. This was done by people around hots.

Agreed: psn was insecure. Hacking is still illegal.

By taking these actions we lost the moral high ground as hackers. The class action by itself would be just fine

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#165

Post by grogenaut » Sun, Dec 08, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

rat9988 wrote: post #153

grogenaut wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a legitimate beef or problem with someone, you don't take illegitimate and illegal actions against them. I'm all for reverse engineering. That's fine. Extorting a company by threatening them with release of an exploit if you don't get your way is not legitimate, that's blackmail or extortion. All of the hackers attacking Sony for months, disabling PSN, is not legitimate, and should never have been suppo…

>you don't take illegitimate and illegal actions against them. What sony did is illegal.

That is what courts are for not viglante action

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#166

Post by grogenaut » Sun, Dec 08, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

HeadsUpHigh wrote: post #151

grogenaut wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm sure I'll lose karma for explaining Sonys side, since some people just want to be mad) Linux support was not removed due to Geohot. It was a driver and business priority issue. Geohot just sealed the deal. Having worked there during the kerfuffle, I can confirm their reason was valid for not supporting Linux going forward. It was a non trivial effort and they wanted those engineers to make it support the new har…

The notion that it is more reasonable to remove a feature that you advertised for instead of losing drm just blows my mind.

I think the thing that you are missing is that DRM is a key feature required by game publishers. Games is the main use of the platform and the reason it exists.

Selling a Linux box isn't. One can argue that selling a Linux box at a loss is a dumb idea. One can argue doing so helped super computing to the masses and was a good gesture. However when the reason the box is subsidized is threatened then it's pretty rational to remove the thing threatening it.

This was definitely a lesser of 2 evils for Sony business choice. They misjudged how much people cared about Linux. As others have misjudged other ads like no man's sky.

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#167

Post by DerekL » Sun, Dec 08, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

krilly wrote: post #5

I would expect this to be more viable than ever, now that the cost of console hardware is so heavily subsidised by online subscription services.

Also, console makers collect fees from third-party game publishers, whether it's on physical media or it's downloaded. I don't know how much profit comes from each source.

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#168

Post by monksy » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 1:24 AM UTC

grogenaut wrote: post #164

monksy wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> illegal actions against them What's illegal about reverse engineering a physical product you sell to someone? > Disabling psn Are you kidding me? The PSN was notriously insecure. Sony didn't give a crap until they were embarassed.

Read my post. Reverse engineering legal and to me moral. Extorting a company with a threat of release of a thing to get what you want: extortion and illegal. This was done by people around hots. Agreed: psn was insecure. Hacking is still illegal. By taking these actions we lost the moral high ground as hackers. The class action by itself would be just fine

The class action only happened because it was hacked. Sony just threw up it's hands and said "we don't care" until they were forced to.

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#169

Post by TMWNN » Mon, Dec 09, 2019, 9:28 PM UTC

llampx wrote: post #142

wmf wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original Xbox had some contractual problems that prevented it from being cost-reduced. I don't think MS cared if they broke even since they were in it for the long haul. Everybody knows Xbox 3.11 for Workgroups was the first good Xbox anyway.

Very different from the Windows Phone philosophy, then.

Not necessarily. PS2 dominated its generation; Xbox did OK, but only a company Microsoft's size could have sustained it (and even Microsoft superseded the console in four years, unusually short for that generation). Xbox 360, Microsoft's second try, was hugely successful, beating PS3 everywhere outside Japan. Had it only been as successful as Xbox was, though, Microsoft might not have tried again.

No Windows Phone iteration ever had more than a few percentage points of share. iOS and Android both clearly destroyed it in the market. Had WP seen a few years of sustained success it would still be around today, sort of like how BlackBerry the brand is still around, albeit for Android-based devices.

Re: The rise and fall of the PlayStation supercomputers

#170

Post by ascagnel_ » Tue, Dec 10, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

gautamcgoel wrote: post #19

ascagnel_ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure how much of a benefit that’d be at this point — the PS3 was some custom hardware that was unique to its era, while the current consoles are 5-year-old x86 chips running custom OSes. Putting Linux into that mix only gets you a stable, but outdated, hardware platform.

I was really thinking more about the upcoming PS5 and Xbox Scarlett, which both should have Zen 2 CPUs and Navi GPUs, along with a generous helping of GDDR6 memory and SSDs.

At launch, those systems will probably be very competitive with off-the-shelf PCs. By 2022, they won't look as good.

One thing these new consoles are doing that seems interesting is that they use a huge pool of unified RAM (rather than two independent pools of main+video memory).