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Learning to code vs. learning to automate

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Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#41

Post by chiefalchemist »

The skills are:

1) Problem identification. Get the target wrong and it doesn't matter how wonderful your code is. 2) Problem solving. 3) Creative thinking. Most code is science, but occasionally it takes art. You have to be willing and able to be an artist.

With these in hand, coding is a means not an ends. The obcession with code as an ends is fool's errand.

Automation? You're gonna need these base skills as well.

Certainly, these things can be taught. But some of us are wired better than others for this skills stack. We don't need more people who write code. We need more problem solvers with an occasional flare for rule breaking, creativity, etc.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#42

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

TomMarius wrote: post #39
sigmaprimus wrote: post #23

When I was younger I dreamed up an idea of a shock suit, basically it would have been a set of long underwear top and bottom with electrodes that would act like a TENS machine to gently(or not so gently) nudge the wearers into performing a repetitive task with machine accuracy. I figured this would be great for an assembly line and could provide a cheaper alternative to a very costly robot while still providing emplo…

I wonder why is it immoral. I understand that mind control would be, but voluntary external muscle control?

It still breaks individual autonomy, probably.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#43

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

Noumenon72 wrote: post #33
vasili111 wrote: post #10

I totally agree that learning "just coding" per se should not be a goal. It should also help to solve some of your real problems and automation is one of the topic that is very likely you need to solve. When you do something that you like and at the same time need it pays off twice. In fact I got most of my programming skills by implementing simple automation task that I needed. I highly recommend AutoHotkey ( https:…

I just changed jobs from developing on Windows to developing on a Linux virtual machine in Windows. I miss AutoHotkey so much. There are so many things that the command line can't do -- GUI commands, window switchers, and so on. It's a great example of how "learn to automate" can beat "learn to code". When you know how to do something by hand, learning enough about a program's API to do the same thing is a separate l…

I thought there was an AHK clone for Linux? Also, I've had good luck with xdotool.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#44

Post by bransonf »

sigmaprimus wrote: post #23

When I was younger I dreamed up an idea of a shock suit, basically it would have been a set of long underwear top and bottom with electrodes that would act like a TENS machine to gently(or not so gently) nudge the wearers into performing a repetitive task with machine accuracy. I figured this would be great for an assembly line and could provide a cheaper alternative to a very costly robot while still providing emplo…

There is a sci-fi story somewhere that talks about this premise. It’s a machine that just gives constant orders to the employees of an establishment. Like “grab the mop”, “go to the bathroom”, “mop from left to right” (you get the idea)

The story makes the cases that the employees are actually satisfied because they don’t have to do any thinking for themselves. They just follow these methodical simple and timed tasks. It’s a really interesting premise I think.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#45

Post by mmierz »

TomMarius wrote: post #39
sigmaprimus wrote: post #23

When I was younger I dreamed up an idea of a shock suit, basically it would have been a set of long underwear top and bottom with electrodes that would act like a TENS machine to gently(or not so gently) nudge the wearers into performing a repetitive task with machine accuracy. I figured this would be great for an assembly line and could provide a cheaper alternative to a very costly robot while still providing emplo…

I wonder why is it immoral. I understand that mind control would be, but voluntary external muscle control?

It’s not external muscle control, that’s not what a TENS unit does. OP is describing using painful electric shocks to punish a worker for mistakes or for going off-task, i.e. brutalize workers into performing with machine like efficiency.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#46

Post by Ididntdothis »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #34
Ididntdothis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I find it very weird to work with. I don’t see the point of learning a different and less powerful coding paradigm. It would be fine if it had it a current UI but you also should be able to write plain text code.

You _can_ write plain text code, add an Applescript or Javascript block. Or just use Script Editor directly instead of going through Automator. Apple Events are quite powerful and let you add a lot of functionality.

I hope you would agree that this unnecessarily cumbersome. A plain text script file is hard to beat.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#47

Post by satyrnein »

Noumenon72 wrote: post #36

> Throughout human history, there’s been a sort of “pain is gain” approach to the repetitive. There was value in putting your head down, getting into a rhythm, and working hard at menial tasks. I was surprised when my sister told me, "I don't think everyone has that instinct to make things better all the time". That's like my fundamental drive! But she doesn't, and I guess I see why. Things didn't get better for hund…

Yes, maybe you're more evolved then they are, or maybe they're just more cynical about an industry where 70% of projects fail to deliver the intended benefit. :-)

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#48

Post by MPetitt »

mmierz wrote: post #45
TomMarius wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why is it immoral. I understand that mind control would be, but voluntary external muscle control?

It’s not external muscle control, that’s not what a TENS unit does. OP is describing using painful electric shocks to punish a worker for mistakes or for going off-task, i.e. brutalize workers into performing with machine like efficiency.

I think he was proposing using the TENS for muscle control similarly to https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5QYpD428hAQ

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#49

Post by rapind »

TomMarius wrote: post #39
sigmaprimus wrote: post #23

When I was younger I dreamed up an idea of a shock suit, basically it would have been a set of long underwear top and bottom with electrodes that would act like a TENS machine to gently(or not so gently) nudge the wearers into performing a repetitive task with machine accuracy. I figured this would be great for an assembly line and could provide a cheaper alternative to a very costly robot while still providing emplo…

I wonder why is it immoral. I understand that mind control would be, but voluntary external muscle control?

Interesting comment. It's so obviously immoral to me, that seeing someone question it has me considering how morals are instilled in other cultures / generations.

I don't mean to frame this from a moral high ground either. Just mildly curious.

Re: Learning to code vs. learning to automate

#50

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #19
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you prefer? Manual is hardly an option.

Forest, trees... There are problems one should automate but there are many problems where automating is not worth the effort. https://xkcd.com/1319/ https://xkcd.com/1205/

I'm willing to agree that some problems aren't worth automating, especially when they have nasty or absent API surface, or when the task changes too much. On the other hand, looking only at time spent is also a very incomplete picture; I've written scripts for tasks that I was fine doing manually just because it allowed me to add free sanity checks and cut down on human error. (Story time: We had a regular process to clean up dev environment data. Coworker ran rm on prod data. We now have a script that sanity-checks the environment parameter and does the rm commands for you.) There's also value in speed beyond the pure time saved; as an extreme case, consider deploying a fix for a 0-day with ansible vs by hand to hundreds of hosts.
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