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SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

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Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#41

Post by jesseb »

sprash wrote: post #36
vasili111 wrote: post #12

Also do not forget that SpaceX is not the only company that wants to launch low orbit satelites. I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution other then to move telescopes to space.

> I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution The solution is not to fill up our precious LEO with space trash. If you want faster Internet lay some fiber. It's probably even less expensive to lay some fiber across the whole jungle than Musks megalomaniac fantasies. As hobby radio astronomer this whole story fills me with rage.

Not every country has the resources or desire to lay nation-wide fiber. Satellite internet could beneift millions of people who don't have access to reliable high-speed connections.

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#42

Post by SEJeff »

Tomte wrote: post #32
SEJeff wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean, "The greedy engineers that want to use said satellites to pay for a Manned Mars mission and make us a multi-planetary species."

Funny, the officially stated purpose is "Internet access". There is some handwaving towards "maybe it could do more".

Musk has been excessively clear the goal of Starlink is to allow SpaceX to self-fund a manned mars mission. You're welcome to downvote all you want, but this does not negate the fact Musk has directly said this (in several interviews). Many people tend to agree with him on this possibility:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/15/musk-on-starlink-internet-sa...

https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-internet-satellites-ma...

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#43

Post by wongarsu »

Tomte wrote: post #34
wongarsu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has jurisdiction over space. We can try to create an international agency and get all space fairing nations to submit to its regulations and rulings, but even if that was politically viable it would take years. Meanwhile Starlink will be deployed mid 2020 if no major delays happen

Great, so any of the hundred-something countries on earth are free to destroy those satellites? ;-)

Generally destroying other people's property isn't looked kindly upon, even if done in international waters or in space.

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#44

Post by ceejayoz »

Tomte wrote: post #37
ceejayoz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SpaceX is launching some of those telescopes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transiting_Exoplanet_Survey_Sa...

And in order to launch it they are using their constellation how exactly? Ah yes, they don't. They are separate.

It was launched on a SpaceX rocket by those "greedy entrepreneurs", at a cost that likely permitted the professional astronomers to save a bunch of money versus launching with a competitor like ULA.

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#45

Post by kevingadd »

SEJeff wrote: post #28
Spare_account wrote: post #2

My first thought was that they should paint them with Vantablack, but then I wondered if that might be too dark? Do they need to aim for a specific reflectivity or just aim for the lowest possible value?

That is often considered, but the light is absorbed and turns into heat. Where does that heat go? It would fry the electronics with no way to get rid of it.

You could use some mechanisms to convert and dissipate the heat, though that doesn't come for free. Though the atmospheric pressure at that altitude is pretty low, you might be able to rig up some sort of peltier cooler setup to dissipate heat. Alternately if you can convert enough of the heat to electricity some other way, you could convert the heat back to light using LEDs or something and only turn on the ones facing away from earth, perhaps?

Plenty of other orbital devices have to deal with heat so I'm sure this is something that has existing solutions.

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#46

Post by ceejayoz »

Tomte wrote: post #29
lacker wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a big fan of astronomy, but satellites are doing a lot more for humanity than ground-based astronomy.

What does an Internet access satellite network do for science? Those scientific uses SpaceX talks about are speculative and clearly secondary (or tertiary behind military use). By contrast, earth-based telescopes are doing lots and lots of science right now.

> What does an Internet access satellite network do for science?

One example: https://www.usap.gov/technology/1935/

> Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station uses communications satellites that serve as relay stations, receiving radio signals from one location and transmitting them to another. The United States Antarctic Program utilizes the satellites for the transfer of South Pole science, operational, and weather data, as well as Internet, telephone, and email services.

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#47

Post by chr1 »

Tomte wrote: post #39
chr1 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional astronomers would rather use a swarm of large and better working telescopes in space instead of dealing with clouds, city lights, and the Sun not allowing to work at normal hours. > Not the greedy entrepreneurs littering the sky with Internet access satellites. The "littering" will be done not just by "greedy entrepreneurs" but by millions of people who will pay for faster internet, and by astronomers wh…

> Professional astronomers would rather use a swarm of large and better working telescopes in space Sure. How many telescopes do those StarLink satellites have? None, right.

They do not need to be part of StarLink.

The more satellites are launched the more money SpaceX gets to develop starship, starship reduces the cost of launching satellites and increases the maximum volume of the satellite, with cheaper launches and cheaper mirrors that do not need complex folding launching space telescope becomes cheaper than building a telescope on the earth, which means that new telescopes will be built for space.

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#48

Post by kevingadd »

ChrisClark wrote: post #19
close04 wrote: post #15

> “No one thought of this,” she said. “We didn’t think of it. The astronomy community didn’t think of it.” This implies the community was asked or involved in such a discussion and no objections were raised, which is unlikely. Whenever some "armchair specialist" commented about Musk's plans to put people on Mars and the challenges with the radiation, the magnetic field, the etc. the answer was always "Do you think a…

Yeah, that's why Musk always asks people to come to him if they have a better idea. Even in large groups, or maybe especially in large groups, things can be overlooked. He recently said in a video that if anyone can convince him an aerospike is better than their solution, he wants to know.

There is a cultural risk involved though - we don't know how comfortable SpaceX employees feel raising objections given how aggressive Musk has been against concerns in the past (see the somewhat credible reports that Musk angrily rejected yellow safety markings on equipment based on personal taste: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/tesla-workers-getting...)

I've heard similar reports from former Tesla employees. They found it stressful working with him in many cases (his brilliance/openness to feedback aside) which could impact this a lot.

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#49

Post by sprash »

jesseb wrote: post #41
sprash wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution The solution is not to fill up our precious LEO with space trash. If you want faster Internet lay some fiber. It's probably even less expensive to lay some fiber across the whole jungle than Musks megalomaniac fantasies. As hobby radio astronomer this whole story fills me with rage.

Not every country has the resources or desire to lay nation-wide fiber. Satellite internet could beneift millions of people who don't have access to reliable high-speed connections.

Sorry but I don't really care. Laying fiber is a dead simple procedure that is rather inexpensive. The main reason it doesn't happen are political reasons. Other countries are responsible to solve their political problems themselves. I have neither any influence, ability or responsibility for the political process in other countries (which is certainly a good thing). Former poor soviet block countries built their own internet literally with their bare hands in the 90s despite being rather poor. So it is not a matter of wealth.

Littering LEO means disrupting the currently most fruitful branch of physics. Particle physics with accelerators is in a crisis right now and the best way to learn about the Universe is astronomy. What Musk does is a crime against humanity.

Re: SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

#50

Post by 9192631770_Hz »

dylan604 wrote: post #6

“No one thought of this,” she said. “We didn’t think of it. The astronomy community didn’t think of it.” I really have trouble believing that nobody mentioned adding thousands of satellites would go unnoticed. It is damn near impossible to take any image of the night sky without having a satellite streak through the frame. I have plenty of images with multiple satellites visible at the same time. In wide angle timela…

Yes, I’m an astronomer and I can tell you this SpaceX statement is pure BS. The astronomy community absolutely thought of this before any of these satellites were launched. I’ve personally talked about it at public outreach events (and it was members of the public who brought it up) and topic has definitely come up at professional meetings...but there is just a general feeling of powerlessness, both from the point of how do you fight a company like SpaceX and a charlatan like Musk, and also from the point of many members of the public don’t care.

I also know a lot of people directly involved in SSA and all of them are very concerned with how much these new constellations are going to increase the risk of collisions, and they all think it’s completely irresponsible when the SpaceX cultists just dismiss the concerns with, “space is a big place,” or, “they’ll deorbit in 20 years or so.”

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