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The Lesson to Unlearn

paulgraham.com

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Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#281
post #240

The tech industry has unfortunately adopted the methodology of centralized hackable tests as the canonical gatekeeping method in the form of programming interviews. Most big tech companies don't care about how good you have been at delivering some value through creating software: they want to see you deliver a very specific type of performance at a whiteboard. Interviewers are given specific math puzzle questions to…

Being a hiring manager at a big company, I can tell you this is just as frustrating for me as it is for candidates. I hate “leet code” and frankly find algorithmic interviews to be very low signal compared to more practical, open-ended, domain-specific problems. I will say though, the problem is one of “standardization” across an organization where it’s too big for everyone to fit in a room. Suppose you give each tea…

> But as you grow, that ten percent of underperforming people becomes large in absolute numbers, and is very painful to deal with.

I feel that beyond hiring, our entire society has a problem with tails of distributions. There is this strong movement behind standardization of everything everywhere to minimize the variance, but that not only eliminates both tails, it also lowers the mean. So e.g. here, in order to avoid exceptionally bad hires, companies not only forgo the chance of getting exceptionally good hires, they also lower the quality of a typical hire.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#282
Interesting enough, I have the same philosophy - I never cared about grades, not even a degree really. I took what interested me and what I felt would help me. For me I always took 16-20 credit hours Per semester, including summers and averaged a GPA if 2.8-3.4 per semester or something. I also took enough classes in 5 years to get two bachelors.

Unfortunately, during job interviews many companies ask for GPA on graduation. I always had to explain “I learned a lot! I just pushed myself to the limit and when you do that you get B’s”

It’s always an interesting discussion and occasionally will lose my potential interviews. The truth is that school is really about certifying what you know, not learning. Personally, I think that should change, because building the skill of curiosity and The ability to research and understand a topic is far more valuable. But to learn to be curious you also have to be able to explore - can’t do that craming for test.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#283

I know that learning how to hack systems is valuable because that's how I got into YCombinator. I set out specifically to hack the application process and succeeded. It wasn't even that difficult to do. If pg believes what he's saying in this essay, I have two questions: 1. why did he design a testing system that was easily hacked? 2. why does YCombinator itself focus so much on hacking the venture capital system, as…

Companies are this way too. The best companies are all run by OKRs and metrics. But if you peek under the hood, all of it is insanely hackable; you have to be naive to try and actually meet your explicitly stated objectives because that's not how you get promoted. It reminds me of a quote from The Elephant in the Brain. I don't remember the wording exactly, but it's something like "if there is a behavior in a large g…

Your last graph is very interesting. I think it resonates because tests are setup with the test-devisers biases and blind spots, but original thinking (tautologically) has to be outside the current consensus that built the environment that built the test makers.

There's a snake eating its tail situation here.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#284
post #264

As somebody who has designed some of the tests Paul Graham is complaining about, it really is hard from the other side! For example, it's long been known in the physics education research community that students come away from introductory courses with very little physical understanding, even if they can do the plug and chug problems on typical tests just fine. Students can all recite Newton's third law, but immediat…

Are there any resources good for finding out more about this and such studies? Myself, I went through this process in physics, and in many cases it was years afterwards that I properly understood the implications and context of the early courses, and only through repeat exposure could grok the actual connections in the problems. It seems especially hard to test and evaluate something that is planting the seeds for a more complete understanding, maybe years down the line.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#285

Funny to read and enjoy this article this morning... Open up HN again this afternoon for a quick work break... And find my eyes IMMEDIATELY glancing at my karma score in the top right before anything else. Perhaps PG should practice what he preaches and rip that out of the UI? I would encourage it... damnit... I just looked again.

Just inject:

td:nth-child(3) > span.pagetop { color: transparent; }

Hides karma, leaves user and logout intact (as they're links)

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#286
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I fall into the "don't get it" category. Could you explain what I should be taking away from this? I understand that being at the leading edge has benefits, but it's not feasible to understand the state-of-the-art across an entire CS curriculum.

Of course, no one can understand everything, but he said, "pick a subject". Just one, not everything. I'm reminded of this description of a PhD: http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/

I disagree with this cartoon in that getting to the edge is not easier by focusing on only one thing. Not knowing other things is just as likely to hold you back from some insight as not knowing your specialty well enough. It's so common that people unaware of progress in other fields spin their wheels solving problems with known solutions that I think the circle should have been more of a confounded sphere where knowing a bit of EE and ChemE makes your work on BioEng 10x closer to the edge. Knowing more than one field reinforces the strength of your innovation. Simple example, how much easier is it to make progress in applied physics if you know enough EE and machining to design and build the best test apparatus in the world?

Pick a focus and whenever you get to the point that you're a strong expert (or whatever level you feel is useful) and can do the job you want to do you should reach a bit and pick up something you're curious about to add more diversity to your skillset.

Being a generalist isn't bad, I basically have a PhD in being a generalist and tons of people want to work with me because someone who only understands optics will be lost when they need to use a photodiode and a lock in amplifier or someone who wants to test magnetic properties will be lost when they don't know how to actually construct a custom magnet. Among many obvious examples.

Unless you're at a place so big that you can just glide on assuming other people will fill in the gaps in your knowledge, you need both general and specific skills. A PhD doesn't have to mean you are only capable of one thing unless you let it, even if that was the common meaning 20 years ago. There just aren't the jobs in academia to support that kind of singular focus anyway.

We're going to live long enough that it's a terrible career decision to pigeon hole yourself so badly 50 years before you're even theoretically going to retire. Especially with online classes it's only going to get more common for people to have multiple significant skills and major changes in their field over the course of their career. Required even. Very few people are going to go for 50 years with a single technical expertise, certainly jobs for such experts are far harder to find than jobs for people who can do a few things at a more modest level of expertise.

I know a ton about materials science and physics, have genetically engineered viruses, have built chemical reactors, have designed catalysts, have done machine learning, have designed lots and lots of electronics, have programmed as required (not my favorite kind of work, but I've done 8051 assembly up to ARM firmware, Matlab, Scheme, Python, and shudder LabView), am more than half decent at machining, teach karate, perform music, and make art... trying to be the best at just one thing to the exclusion of all else is unnecessary and limiting both professionally and personally.

I was terrible at all of these things when I started. The article echoes my philosophy as well -- you have to learn to learn because you want to and not because you want a grade. I got a C- in differential equations. Two years later in stat mech I was the only one of my friends who recognized LaGrangian multipliers being used (by name even) because when I took the course my goal was to learn differential equations regardless of what grade I got, so I didn't forget it all the second the final was done. If you are the kind of person who just won't do homework unless it's graded, you should work on that because it will hold you back and you're training yourself to rapidly forget information that isn't required to pass a test.

Don't be afraid to try new things that interest you. Be okay with skilled people saying you're bad at something you did your best at, grow a thicker skin since those people are the ones likely to be able to give you advice to become good at it. Professors want you to come to office hours, especially if you're struggling.

You have to be okay with getting that C-, who cares what grade they assign you as long as ten years later you still remember convolutions or whatever. Be solid at a bunch of stuff rather than extremely good at, I don't know, something super specific like the spin states in cobalt platinum alloys or matlab modeling of alloy surface energy same as you shouldn't refuse to learn anything but Python if you want to still be a developer in 2069.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#287
post #90

I'm glad he made the leap from school tests to funding tests, as it seemed to be a thinly veiled analogy from the start. I'm disappointed, though, that he didn't take the final step and admit that money itself is also a poor, hackable test. Funding, growth, usage -- these are all still one level removed from something worthwhile or beneficial. Cigarettes have amazing usage numbers even in 2019. I'm waiting for the en…

You are implying that PG thinks money is all important - but he doesn’t think that.

PG: if you had to boil it down to one quality to look for, authenticity would be the most important one. “You’re looking for people who are real friends,” he said to Chang. “Not just for people who got together for the purposes of this startup. You don’t want people who were in it just for the money.

He also talks about how that startup founders that are more interested in the product or the challenge of building a business, make buttloads of cash as a side-effect.

And YC funds nonprofit startups too?

Also from another 2004 PG essay:

“””Money Is Not Wealth

If you want to create wealth, it will help to understand what it is. Wealth is not the same thing as money. [3] Wealth is as old as human history. Far older, in fact; ants have wealth. Money is a comparatively recent invention.

Wealth is the fundamental thing. Wealth is stuff we want: food, clothes, houses, cars, gadgets, travel to interesting places, and so on. You can have wealth without having money. If you had a magic machine that could on command make you a car or cook you dinner or do your laundry, or do anything else you wanted, you wouldn't need money. Whereas if you were in the middle of Antarctica, where there is nothing to buy, it wouldn't matter how much money you had.

Wealth is what you want, not money.”””

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#288
post #240

The tech industry has unfortunately adopted the methodology of centralized hackable tests as the canonical gatekeeping method in the form of programming interviews. Most big tech companies don't care about how good you have been at delivering some value through creating software: they want to see you deliver a very specific type of performance at a whiteboard. Interviewers are given specific math puzzle questions to…

The tech industry has unfortunately adopted the methodology of centralized hackable tests

I think the opposite is the case. Every industry has some sort of test to get into it. But the other industries are the most centralized and hackable ones. The tech industry is doing the best job of any of the top industries of having an application process that is open to skilled people who don't match the "centralized" standard.

Your grades in college, the experience on your resume, those are "centralized" tests. You have one resume and you send it out to everyone.

When companies give programming tests to applicants, each company is free to measure the applicants' skill in any way they see fit. One might ask math puzzle questions, but another company might give take-home Rails projects. And companies are free to just do a "soft" interview and look at your resume if they want.

Facebook hires far more software engineers with no software engineering education than Chevron hires chemical engineers with no chemical engineering education.

Plus, starting a company is open to anyone with a credit card to open an AWS account. No interview required. Just make something people want.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#289
post #90

I'm glad he made the leap from school tests to funding tests, as it seemed to be a thinly veiled analogy from the start. I'm disappointed, though, that he didn't take the final step and admit that money itself is also a poor, hackable test. Funding, growth, usage -- these are all still one level removed from something worthwhile or beneficial. Cigarettes have amazing usage numbers even in 2019. I'm waiting for the en…

I agree.

Also, most small businesses do stuff people want. But it's mostly commodities. So the hard part in many small businesses is marketing.

And marketing is mostly hacking.

As for startups,marketing is very important for a startup.

But is it common to sucseed without something people want, or at least get addicted to ?

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#290
No, no, no, experienced students are saying to themselves.

    Oh, no no no, it was too cold always   
    (Still the dead one lay moaning)   
    I was much too far out all my life   
    And not waving but drowning.
Somehow captures the mood of reading pg's later oeuvre.
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