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If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

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Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#52
post #35

All this assumes that time is a single thing (sort of gigantic X-axis with "t") that works for everyone in universe equally. What if we have multiple (billions) of realities with their own t-axis and with us being only one of these with our own timeline?

What if the entire universe with all of its history was just created 1ms ago?

The answer is, if you can't even conceivably test for it, it's mostly irrelevant to think too much about.

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#53

I feel like we are all idiots repeating "space is expanding" if humans could live 14billion years in age, and we were present when it started, but we left good old Bob on the part of the universe that was travelling away from us, he would have traveled FTL from us. Even if you said space expanded, the traveling has been accomplished. So now we know that space expansion is how you travel FTL. In other words if humans…

Ok, but you can’t use it to go to anywhere FTL. You can only use it to get further away from somewhere FTL.

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#54
post #25

And... another author that doesn't get it or looks for a controversial, clickbaity title. The correct way to state it would be to say: "We are seing things that are currently 46B light years away but since they are so far away we see them as they were 13.8B years ago when they were much closer than they are now." I see absolutely nothing difficult about that statement unless you really need to create some piece of co…

It's at lesst a little confusing how something went from 14B light years away to 46B light years away (seems to be a distance of 32B light years total travel) in 14B years.

Except the galaxies do not travel. Galaxies are more or less stationary, it's the space inbetween that expands. Think in terms of raisins in a dough or points on expanding baloon. Neither of them could be said to travel, yet they can be seen to become more and more far away.

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#55

I feel like we are all idiots repeating "space is expanding" if humans could live 14billion years in age, and we were present when it started, but we left good old Bob on the part of the universe that was travelling away from us, he would have traveled FTL from us. Even if you said space expanded, the traveling has been accomplished. So now we know that space expansion is how you travel FTL. In other words if humans…

[deleted]

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#58
post #2

What does it mean: "if we left today we could only reach one third of it"? I couldn't find a the limiting factor... The stars would be dead before we arrived? My best guess. Of course, the qualification would be that we continue to be bound to the speed of light maximum.

There are stars which we can "see now" (i.e. receive light that they released long ago) which are unreachable because the space between us is expanding faster than you can move - if you're moving at lightspeed towards them, every year the distance between you and that star is becoming larger; right now you're closer to it than you're ever going to be, no matter what you do.

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#59
post #25

And... another author that doesn't get it or looks for a controversial, clickbaity title. The correct way to state it would be to say: "We are seing things that are currently 46B light years away but since they are so far away we see them as they were 13.8B years ago when they were much closer than they are now." I see absolutely nothing difficult about that statement unless you really need to create some piece of co…

Yet you can't account for them now being 46B light years away without breaching C, or encompassing the expansion of the universe, within which things are moving. I think he manages a clear explanation of that without scaring away too many.

Your "correct" version on the other hand, leaves more questions than answers, not least of which being how do we ever get 46B ly distance in something 13.8B years old. Then you have to cover the expansion, relativity, and hey presto you've written the article. Just skimming the other comments here makes it clear it's not a topic that's well understood or intuitive.

Clickbait it ain't, and the title is a very fair question.

I'm really disappointed to see this the top voted HN answer right now...

Re: If the universe is 13.8B years old, how can we see 46B light years away? (2018)

#60

how can universe be expanding faster than speed of light? general relativity doesn't apply here?

It's precisely because general relativity applies that this is possible.

First, note that relative velocity and growth of distance between objects are distinct concepts: Shoot two bullets at 0.9c each in opposite directions, and from your perspective, the distance between them will grow at a rate of 1.8c, whereas their relative velocity (as computed from the 'angle' between their 4-velocities) will only be 0.994c.

In special relativity, that relative velocity will correspond to the growth of distance between the bullets as measured by an observer comoving with either bullet.

In general relativity, things are more complicated: Curved spaces lack distance parallelism, so you can only compare the velocity vectors of the two bullets when they are located in the same place at the same time. Also, there's generally no longer a canonical way to decompose spacetime into spatial slices across which you can measure distances.

Now, you can still define a relative velocity through parallel transport along a path connecting the two objects, and in particular the path of a photon emitted by a distant galaxy and observed by us. This will in fact recover cosmological redshift as a generalized Doppler shift. If defined this way, the relative velocity goes to c as you approach the cosmic event horizon, hence you'll never observe relative velocities larger than c.

However, while there's no canonical spatial slicing in general relativity, in Friedmann cosmology specifically, a preferred spatial slicing does exist: The one where the universe looks homogeneous and isotropic and the same amount of time will have passed since the big bang (as measured by an observer following the Hubble flow). This allows us to define the proper distance (at constant cosmological time) between astronomical objects, and the growth of this distance is what's known as 'recession velocities'. These velocities go to c at the Hubble sphere, which doesn't really have any particular significance: We can see galaxies that were located outside the Hubble sphere just fine (though as time goes on, the Hubble sphere will approach the cosmic horizon asymptotically).

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