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The Lesson to Unlearn

paulgraham.com

211–220 of 588 posts

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#211
post #66

I got into "computer science" before there was a CS degree. Our CS classes were taught in the math dept (fortran), business dept (cobol), or engineering (assembler). The profs were literally 1 chapter ahead of the students. I, however, was in love with the subject. I was the "student advisor" in our "machine room". We had 5 teletypes connected to a remote mainframe at Rutgers. I lived and breathed CS. I wrote tests f…

I think I fall into the "don't get it" category. Could you explain what I should be taking away from this? I understand that being at the leading edge has benefits, but it's not feasible to understand the state-of-the-art across an entire CS curriculum.

It may not be feasible for the entire curriculum, but it may be feasible for a student to roll their own curriculum that is.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#212
post #66

I got into "computer science" before there was a CS degree. Our CS classes were taught in the math dept (fortran), business dept (cobol), or engineering (assembler). The profs were literally 1 chapter ahead of the students. I, however, was in love with the subject. I was the "student advisor" in our "machine room". We had 5 teletypes connected to a remote mainframe at Rutgers. I lived and breathed CS. I wrote tests f…

It sounds like what you’re saying is: the best way to hack a test is to actually learn the subject.

Thus, the best way to learn is to be in love with the subject.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#213
post #20

My wife and I are contemplating unschooling our kids. The longer our son is in primary school, the more we see the deterioration of his willingness to learn anything school-related. He hates homework (as do most kids), and this is even more painful to see given that it has been shown that homework is essentially useless for learning performance. He still likes to write and do math, but as long as he is in school, we…

> Btw, Gates, Page, Brin - all were not in a conventional school. This is Anecdata^3, you probably shouldn't make rash decisions about your children based on 3 successful technical entrepreneurs.

True, it‘s just worth bearing in mind that deviating from the ordinary school system can indeed work.. kids will not automatically fail miserably if they don’t do tests or homework. That was the belief my mother (who was a teacher) ingrained in me, and I actually have to convince myself on a regular basis that life without the standard school system could also work out.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Btw, Gates, Page, Brin - all were not in a conventional school. This is Anecdata^3, you probably shouldn't make rash decisions about your children based on 3 successful technical entrepreneurs.

Especially since going to any kind of private school tracks closely with “parents have lots of money” which probably has a lot more to do with it.

Not necessarily, there are lots of private schools which do things very normally.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#215
post #30
post #20

My wife and I are contemplating unschooling our kids. The longer our son is in primary school, the more we see the deterioration of his willingness to learn anything school-related. He hates homework (as do most kids), and this is even more painful to see given that it has been shown that homework is essentially useless for learning performance. He still likes to write and do math, but as long as he is in school, we…

All true known and well established. But homeschooling requires a parent to sacrifice anything else and be devoted for that. Not an easy decision. It's much easier to find a good school!

Not necessarily true. I admit it’s a lifestyle change, but it can work quite well if both parents are freelancers.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#216
post #20

My wife and I are contemplating unschooling our kids. The longer our son is in primary school, the more we see the deterioration of his willingness to learn anything school-related. He hates homework (as do most kids), and this is even more painful to see given that it has been shown that homework is essentially useless for learning performance. He still likes to write and do math, but as long as he is in school, we…

What about socializing?

That’s the big issue. We‘re thinking about Karate/swimming/chess etc courses, but ideally you would have access to a community of unschoolers. Some big cities have this, but currently not an option for us.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#217
post #90

I'm glad he made the leap from school tests to funding tests, as it seemed to be a thinly veiled analogy from the start. I'm disappointed, though, that he didn't take the final step and admit that money itself is also a poor, hackable test. Funding, growth, usage -- these are all still one level removed from something worthwhile or beneficial. Cigarettes have amazing usage numbers even in 2019. I'm waiting for the en…

> I'm waiting for the entrepreneur who will say he doesn't care how much money he makes or how many customers he has, only that it's worthwhile and needed doing. This is literally all of open source software. The problem here is that you're waiting for an entrepreneur to say this, which is the wrong kind of person to expect this from.

> The problem here is that you're waiting for an entrepreneur to say this, which is the wrong kind of person to expect this from.

I agree and can’t help but wonder if this is why we’re seeing more and more developers trying to make money from their Open Source projects.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#218
Funny to read and enjoy this article this morning...

Open up HN again this afternoon for a quick work break...

And find my eyes IMMEDIATELY glancing at my karma score in the top right before anything else.

Perhaps PG should practice what he preaches and rip that out of the UI?

I would encourage it... damnit... I just looked again.

Re: The Lesson to Unlearn

#220
For anyone who enjoyed this, a lot of these ideas were really well discussed a few years back in Neil Postman's "Teaching as a Subversive Activity" (1969) and John Dewey's "Democracy & Education" (1916). As you can see these books are over 50 years old. These ideas aren't new, which goes to say how long we've known this and what little have we done.

The real question Graham poses here is: what is the point of schooling? At the moment, it teaches and conditions people to "hack tests" as Graham puts it. So people continue to do that throughout their lives.

It also conditions people to think there is a "correct" answer to problems. Which in the open-ended nature of the real questions we have to grapple with in life is a complete lie. A teacher will rarely say: "It depends."

What passes for "education" today is really just "training" and very far removed from real learning. People only learn about things that interest them. And you learn by asking questions, which most of the time will lead to further questions to which you will only ever find tentative, temporary answers. Not that different from how scientists treat their "solutions" to big questions as tentative.

What can we do to change that? Change schools. It's the one place where we have kids kept for 15 years by mandate! It's the biggest lever we have to change perceptions and attitudes. Remove tests and grading. Learning will free up when that happens. It's remarkable what happens when at the beginning of the year the teacher gives everyone an A. Let go of the idea that permeates American society that everything needs to be measured. Some things do, but things like intelligence can't and shouldn't.

I know the immediate response is that this is unpractical. And to that I ask why? Because we need a way to control? Control what? What district is "performing" better? When was a score on a math test a true measure of human potentiality?

We need to go back to core questions as to what is the point of schools and what is worth teaching and learning in today's world. The world has changed immensely, but our "curriculums" are the same. The only difference is we use tablets and Microsoft Word to hand in assignments.

I agree with Graham's conclusion. When we liberate ourselves from these useless idealogical metaphors we will free people and society up to stop hacking tests and start living.

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