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The Great Cannon has been deployed again

cybersecurity.att.com

371–380 of 470 posts

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Chinese government wants to man in the middle traffic to foreign sites they can just force PC vendors to install a CCP controlled CA root on systems and make it illegal and/or very difficult to remove it. Shit, they can require vendors include a hardware backdoor, especially since so much of that hardware is produced domestically. Then they can view the traffic even going to and from foreign sites who would no…

The Chinese government can do this for systems sold within China. They don't have the authority to do it for computers globally. If I'm understanding other comments correctly, browser vendors installing HTTPSEverywhere cuts down the potential for this Great Cannon attack from 7.7 billion users to 1.4 billion. An 80% reduction seems significant.

I was under the impression that the other commenters were referring to HTTPS as a solution for those in China to protect themselves from their own government. Perhaps I was wrong.

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently (4 or 5 months ago) joined an online community of aircraft owners and pilots that is primarily focused around a single brand of aircraft (although it's not an official site of, property of, that brand nor is it endorsed by that brand). When I signed up, they emailed me to welcome me to the site (they actually require manual authorization of users by an admin, which is... refreshing, but uncommon). The emai…

I'll top that. I used TABCPermit.com to get licensed to serve alcohol in Texas. Their signup form says "no special characters in password". I used one anyway, putting in "password$1" for example. It accepted it, and I worked on the test. Next day, I can't login. I use the "forgot password" link. They send me and email, and it has my password in it! Bad, right? That isn't all. My password, they said, was "password1".…

Are you sure your password has a $ in it? What makes you think that they don't strip the $ when you set and enter your password?

If it seemed like they were doing a hash then compare, I would wonder if they are using the legacy unix crypt that truncates passwords at 8 characters.

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#373
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what if China isn't running death camps per se? The problem is that it's running something of the magnitude of Nazi Germany and getting away with it. No sane government would go 100% Nazi overnight, but if they see that being 50% Nazi is OK, then they might raise it to 75% etc. It's a game like all authoritarian politics. They're probing ground, and many other authoritarians around the world are looking at the res…

That is quite a big "per se" there. My point is there is a huge distinction between concentration camps and death camps. The Nazis progressed from one to the other, but that is not a guarantee (this is where that US reference might come into play). There is a large difference between "let's segregate these people" to "let's kill all of them" and we shouldn't blur the lines between either the Nazi's decision to make t…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these aren't segregation centers. There's a big difference between "let's segregate these people" and "let's re-educate these people." China seems to be well into the re-education process and while they may not have trains headed to death camps, I think it's more accurate to say that they are closer to those death camps than they are to Jim Crowe laws, having already surpassed cases like re-education boarding schools [1] which AFAIK are considered genocide by international law.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schoo...

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be the kind of signal that would be hard for the Chinese to spin in such a way that it would make them look good, and the economic effect would be pretty much instantaneous. There is plenty of historical precedent for this: spammers' IP ranges would be blackholed to send a message to their ISPs that such behavior wasn't tolerated. That the Chinese authorities decide to play this game at the nation state le…

I'm not sure 'We have the technology to censor the internet, and it's okay to deploy it' is the message you want to give the CCP.

We're kinda already past this?

At this point we really need to start doing the "You wanted a Great Firewall? Enjoy. You now have no connection."

Removing China from the internet would also likely cause things that phone home to China to break. That would actually create some consumer awareness to boot.

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll top that. I used TABCPermit.com to get licensed to serve alcohol in Texas. Their signup form says "no special characters in password". I used one anyway, putting in "password$1" for example. It accepted it, and I worked on the test. Next day, I can't login. I use the "forgot password" link. They send me and email, and it has my password in it! Bad, right? That isn't all. My password, they said, was "password1".…

Are you sure your password has a $ in it? What makes you think that they don't strip the $ when you set and enter your password? If it seemed like they were doing a hash then compare, I would wonder if they are using the legacy unix crypt that truncates passwords at 8 characters.

[deleted]

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just for good measure: sudo echo -e "\n\n# Null route the Great Cannon:\n0.0.0.0 baidu.com\n0.0.0.0 qihucdn.com\n" | tee /etc/hosts ... but I know I'm only fooling myself.

(I strongly recommend tee -a :) as well as putting the sudo before the tee).

Notable reason (for those unfamiliar) is that tee will overwrite the file unless given the -a argument which will append the input to the end of the file.

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#377
I see a lot of arguments for specific technical mitigations for the specific implementation of this attack. All these technical approaches are doomed to fail.

The attack uses network-level injection to add malware to HTTP requests for resources served from inside China. This malware then runs on hosts anywhere in the world and effectively DDoSes the targets. It is true that if these specific requests were made over HTTPS rather than HTTP, this particular attack would be mitigated.

Unfortunately the point that is being missed here is that if these resources had been served over HTTPS, this attack simply would have been implemented in a slightly different way. The suggested mitigations would work post-facto. However, if had they been in place prior to this attack, which is the alternative we have to consider, other means would have rendered them useless.

The fact is that any website hosted in China is directly accessible to the CCP for hosting these attack payloads. There is an ICP registration system and a chain of access to hosting environments that grants full network control and full access to any server to the authorities at any time they choose. Servers that are not part of this system are simply not allowed to host websites on the Chinese internet. Further, there is direct political control over every major internet company.

This is such a fundamentally different situation that it can be hard for American observers to understand what range of potential responses are meaningful.

The reality is that any network request that is served from China is fully within the political power of the CCP to alter. Whether this involves HTTP or HTTPS or whether implemented via the GFW or by direct changes to endpoints within internet companies is immaterial. Beyond the logistical costs of these actions within China, nothing of any consequence is changed by such minor technical mitigations.

What these attacks show is not just the capability but the willingness to use that capability in an offensive capacity against political targets.

The difference between the internet of independent sites in the US and the situation of near-total political control over resources on the network in China can hardly be overstated. This is why technical solutions that seem completely reasonable from an American perspective are pointless in reality. The threat model of the world's largest online population with all network resources under direct political control is simply too unfamiliar. If the political will exists to use those resources offensively, technical countermeasures will always be ineffective, unless they are so seemingly disproportionate that they become essentially political acts, like depeering.

Meaningful responses are those that affect the political willingness of the CCP to weaponize the internet. Weaponization will destroy the internet as we know it, and raising awareness before this kind of thing becomes routine may be the last chance we have to avoid it.

This is a political problem, and does not have a technical solution.

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#379
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what do you think happens to sites caught serving malware? They get put on safebrowsing blacklists. That problem solves itself.

If the Chinese government wants to man in the middle traffic to foreign sites they can just force PC vendors to install a CCP controlled CA root on systems and make it illegal and/or very difficult to remove it. Shit, they can require vendors include a hardware backdoor, especially since so much of that hardware is produced domestically. Then they can view the traffic even going to and from foreign sites who would no…

>If the Chinese government wants to man in the middle traffic to foreign sites they can just force PC vendors to install a CCP controlled CA root on systems and make it illegal and/or very difficult to remove it.

Addressed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21721843

>Shit, they can require vendors include a hardware backdoor, especially since so much of that hardware is produced domestically.

If they're only doing it for local computers, the consequences/response is the same as the previous paragraph.

If they're doing it for foreign computers on a mass scale required for a DDoS attack, if discovered will torpedo their entire electronics sector. All the "ban huawei" politicians will have a field day with that.

Re: The Great Cannon has been deployed again

#380

So, maybe firewall off China for a couple of days? Sure, it would hurt on both sides but at least it would be clear that abuse at this scale leads to being blackholed.

I agree that such bad behavior should be punished, but why just couple of days? This would be similar to UN trade sanctions that are imposed on bad state actors.

I think we generally overestimate the hurt on the outside and underestimate the hurt on the inside considering the massive trade imbalance that China enjoys with the rest of the world.

Personally I have already pi-holed entire .cn and other domains.

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