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Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

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Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#121

Post by bilbo0s »

oefrha wrote: post #117
bilbo0s wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. Guy, try to be reasonable. Opposition to a political opinion, is itself, a political opinion. What you're asking is that your political opinion be the only one that gets Freedom of Expression, Freedom of Association, Freedom of Speech etc. Because you are explicitly asking that people with opposing political opinions not be given rights of Freedom of Expression and Association.

Opposition to a political opinion is a valid political opinion. You should lose your livelihood for having this political opinion is another valid political opinion, however distasteful. However, there’s a big problem if you’re guaranteed to lose your livelihood when a handful of vocal individuals who otherwise have no associations with you whatsoever hold the aforementioned opinion. Let’s just hope you’re never on t…

>Let’s just hope you’re never on the receiving end of it

Too late. I joined up with the ACLU decades ago, long before there ever was a Twitter. So I've been a pariah for a long while and it doesn't bother me. The important thing is to maintain the civil liberties of each and every person in the United States.

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#122

Post by banads »

F-0X wrote: post #92
creaghpatr wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you're spreading anti-vax propaganda, you're complicit in killing kids. That is absolutely nuts if you believe that.

Is it? If A says to B, "don't vaccinate your kids", B complies, and then B's child dies of a disease it could have been vaccinated against, you would not say A had any culpability?

Depends on if you think people have any free will or ability to think for themselves

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#123

Post by nabnob »

jhomedall wrote: post #104
nabnob wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already happened. Facebook, Twitter, Youtube already remove and delete comments that are outside the overton window. Sure, they're not part of the government, but when it comes to freedom of expression does it really matter?

Google, Facebook, and Twitter cannot jail you.

Police investigated a man for sharing an offensive limerick on Twitter - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/24/man-investigated...

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#124

Post by nostromo »

manifestsilence wrote: post #47

There has been a lot of mixing of concepts in this space lately. There is the legal question of government interference with speech, protected by the First Amendment in the US. Then there is the moral issue of deplatforming by corporations. Then there is the moral issue of groups of people bullying a dissenting viewpoint. These are different issues with different levels of severity and different solutions. Anyone who…

> What America, and other nations who value freedom, have is a protection against government interference.

This argument is super common, but also not correct.

Yes, the first amendment is about protecting speech from government censorship.

But freedom of speech is much broader, and predates the US Constitution by two millennia. If you look at the full history of the concept, it's not just about protection from government, but also protection from undue reprisal.

For example, in the larger view of the ideal of freedom of speech, it is indeed a violation to be fired from your job for holding an unrelated, unpopular political view.

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#125

Post by cortesoft »

F-0X wrote: post #92
creaghpatr wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you're spreading anti-vax propaganda, you're complicit in killing kids. That is absolutely nuts if you believe that.

Is it? If A says to B, "don't vaccinate your kids", B complies, and then B's child dies of a disease it could have been vaccinated against, you would not say A had any culpability?

Let's keep going, though... there IS a non-zero chance that your kid can die from a vaccine. It is very very rare, and more kids will die from not getting a vaccine than from getting one, but there will exist a parent who can say truthfully that vaccines killed their kid.

Can they then argue that a pro-vaccine person killed their kid? Can they sue their doctor?

If we allow this line of reasoning, where does it stop? If I tell people they should let their kids play in the dirt, can they sue me if their kid gets sick from a dirt born disease?

Everything has risk, and we can't make a law saying that anytime a risk event occurs you can sue someone who said to do the thing.

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#126

Post by mendelmaleh »

nabnob wrote: post #123
jhomedall wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google, Facebook, and Twitter cannot jail you.

Police investigated a man for sharing an offensive limerick on Twitter - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/24/man-investigated...

That is in the UK, they don't have freedom of speech.

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#127

Post by Roujo »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #115
BucketSort wrote: post #9

In addition to government interference in free speech, all actions/words that offend have potentially life devastating consequences in this age of the digital permanent record. Suppose you slap someone in a moment of uncontrolled anger. If someone records that, posts it on the internet, and it goes viral, you then become the mad slapper in the eyes of the world. If someone googles your name, they will see you slappin…

Well, let's suppose it's 1900, and you live in a small town somewhere in the US. You slap someone in a moment of uncontrolled anger. How long would that follow you? The rest of your life, unless you leave town. That single slap could destroy your life. So I think that the "digital permanent record" removes the anonymity of the big city, and returns us to small town rules.

I agree with the similarity but as you're saying there was always the possibility of leaving town. It wasn't a convenient solution, and you might very well repeat the same actions wherever you go, but at least you could get a chance to start over elsewhere. IMO that's quite a bit different than the current situation, where I feel you'd have to go and change your legal name, move to another location and get new accounts online to manage to shake off what is now attached to your real name, and _even then_ the paper trail would probably be found at some point and it would all come back to you.

So small town rules, yes, but practically speaking there's only one town left. Whether it's a good thing or not is a matter of opinion - and depends on the specific context as far as I'm concerned - but overall I feel like something of value has been lost in the transition. It might have been possible to make amends and/or show that whatever you did was a temporary lapse in judgement before, but doing that one the scale of the whole internet audience we have nowadays doesn't feel practical, or even possible really. =/

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#128

Post by [deleted] »

cortesoft wrote: post #125
F-0X wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? If A says to B, "don't vaccinate your kids", B complies, and then B's child dies of a disease it could have been vaccinated against, you would not say A had any culpability?

Let's keep going, though... there IS a non-zero chance that your kid can die from a vaccine. It is very very rare, and more kids will die from not getting a vaccine than from getting one, but there will exist a parent who can say truthfully that vaccines killed their kid. Can they then argue that a pro-vaccine person killed their kid? Can they sue their doctor? If we allow this line of reasoning, where does it stop?…

[deleted]

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#129

Post by ppseafield »

School-Cotton wrote: post #86
djsumdog wrote: post #49

I wonder if we'll see China open up in our lifetimes. Would it even be possible with protests, or would that government need to fail in order to see that magnitude of change? And to be fair, China isn't North Korea by any means. so in some ways, it seems like the most likely to start demeaning more freedom.

Countries have gone from authoritarian dictatorships to liberal democracies with no major revolution, so I don't see why it should be impossible. For example: South Korea in the 80s.

Taiwan as well.

Re: Freedom of expression is at a ten-year low globally, study says

#130

Post by F-0X »

banads wrote: post #122
F-0X wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? If A says to B, "don't vaccinate your kids", B complies, and then B's child dies of a disease it could have been vaccinated against, you would not say A had any culpability?

Depends on if you think people have any free will or ability to think for themselves

I don't think it does. People share information and learn from each other. Hence, it is important to be responsible when providing information. We frequently see disclaimers on HN, Reddit, etc. like "IANAL", so as to put forward a point of view while warning it shouldn't be taken too seriously as actionable advice. It's the sensible thing to do.

Anybody spreading anti-vaccination propaganda has been convinced of it themselves.

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