Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Consciousness appears to exist outside of the physical world, in that we can describe a physical process entirely without invoking consciousness. Only in the same ways that e.g. emotions exist 'outside of the physical world' and we are doing some work with those (e.g. we know more about the effects of hormones on them now). I completely disagree that this is unstudiable or 'behind the veil'. We can create beings wit…
So what is qualia, or the experience of conscious beings?
The unending quest to explain consciousness
141–150 of 255 posts
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
Probably because consciousness requires some kind of underlying mental processes, which take time to achieve. I can only guess that it's similar to an instance of a computer program such as a web browser, i.e., it isn't a "thing" itself but is built out of a multitude of underlying calculations on a physical computer. This also implies to me that consciousness, not being a physical thing itself, comes and goes within…
consciousness does not require a brain. consciousness is fundamental to the universe
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#143My personal preference is for panexperientialism (essentially a bare bones panpsychism), with the idea that the phenomenon is somehow connected with change, and belongs to anything capable of change in some way and is probably a fundamental property of nature, as fundamental as space or time. It's important to divorce consciousness from all ideas of "thought", "will" etc. to consider it's essence which is more connec…
Probably because consciousness requires some kind of underlying mental processes, which take time to achieve. I can only guess that it's similar to an instance of a computer program such as a web browser, i.e., it isn't a "thing" itself but is built out of a multitude of underlying calculations on a physical computer. This also implies to me that consciousness, not being a physical thing itself, comes and goes within…
Assuming you mean cognition, this is essentially the opposite of the idea of panexperientialism, or at least not compatible.
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
So what is qualia, or the experience of conscious beings?
Qualia is not a scientific concept and really needs to be dismissed. (By definition it cannot be measured or observed.) I doubt you agree, but any study of consciousness that has a chance of succeeding will need to be extremely rigorous. I believe that an explanation of consciousness - much like the theory of evolution - will be both very simple and very unpopular.
Let the downvotes rolll.....
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
A materialistic approach to explaining consciousness is necessary, since consciousness can be affected by physical changes to the brain, which implies that consciousness is fundamentally a physical process.
I'm of two minds about this (ha). One nods and says "yup, 'nuff said". The other thinks about a radio. A sufficiently complex radio can do amazing things... provided it has a signal. It can make music sounds boring and flat, or it can bring it to life (via an equalizer function). But if you mess with the antenna in any way, or, for that matter, disconnect it fully, the entire experience can be altered in significant…
In my little thought experiment the radio itself was never physically changed, just the antenna. The antenna, another physical component, is just a sensing peripheral. But what does the radio process if its front end is dead?
Think about Helen Keller for a minute. What kinds of sensing signals did she process? Vastly different than most of us. Yet she was still able to arrive at a roughly equivalent understanding of our overall shared experience. I say roughly equivalent because I have no idea what her internal state looks, or functions, like.
I think about this often. I myself have a drive to try to electronically capture, and share, knowledge. But I play a little thought experiment in my head often... what if all your senses were cut off and you were locked in. Just you inside your head, nothing else. Forgetting important factors like if you were just born or right now in your current state... what if a dry, textual, fact were somehow delivered straight to your consciousness. Something you know nothing about, nor have ever experienced before in any setting. Let's say you've never experienced snow, you don't even know what it is. Maybe you've only ever lived in a hot desert your whole life and have never experienced freezing cold, in any form (no AC, ice, etc...). So a textual description of snow is made available to your (locked-in) consciousness. You have no idea how to process that fact into an experience. I like to think of it like IBM's Watson. It has access to a wealth of facts. But it has nearly zero experience with any of them. You can not experience that dry textual fact without previous experience. In this case precipitation and/or freezing cold. I don't even think it's about context so much. Let's say you are provided with context about precipitation and freezing cold. It still doesn't provide the experience, memory, of either. You're consciousness is missing the essential primitives necessary for understanding the experience. I guess for me it's always come back to the experience. Watson can provide information. But it can't truly communicate a shared experience with that information to another consciousness, regardless of whether or not that other consciousness has experienced those primitives or not.
More simply, think about the first Matrix movie (insert groan here). Trinity downloads how to fly a helicopter. Let's say I want to invent that type of technology. My first attempt may be to create a system where you simply attach a cell phone to your head and have a way of conveying textual facts to your eyes. Dry facts about flying a helicopter. One field test is done with someone who has zero experience with flying at all. It will likely fail to produce the intended result. Sure it may provide a liftoff. But you will not be an instant stunt flyer. So iteration number two involves simple non-interactive, non-motion graphics. Another field test is done, on a new subject with no experience. Maybe somewhat better results, but still not the intended outcome. Next iteration involves videos. Another field test, again only somewhat improved results. You can iterate all the way through a short interactive simulation. The results will be better, for sure. But until you've had actual time in the field before-hand, i.e., experience, you just don't know the experience.
Read the definition of gravity. Huh!? Drop an apple, oh!
So what would it take here? Implanted memories? Along with all the necessary primitives??? I don't have the answer.
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#146An interesting thing to me is the unending quest may somewhat end during our lifetimes through us being able to build conscious AI and see how it works.
I doubt it. We can't prove other humans are conscious, I don't see how AI will help clarify anything there.
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#147There have been individuals who understood consciousness for thousands of years, one pops up every so often like in "The Matrix" but to have this person try to explain it to the masses is casting pearls before swine.
You're talking about the very design of reality, of course the explanation is going to be a little more radical than you're prepared for in your everyday ego-driven state of mind.
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#148I suspect it doesn't exist, we wish it exists, otherwise we are machines.
I'm not sure why you've been downvoted for this. The fact that our consciousness is nothing more than the emergent behaviour of various ongoing chemical and electrical processes doesn't sit well with some people, I guess. Personally I derive a lot of comfort from the fact that we aren't "special".
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
A materialistic approach to explaining consciousness is necessary, since consciousness can be affected by physical changes to the brain, which implies that consciousness is fundamentally a physical process.
fundamentally physical? consciousness is fundamental and eternal, no beginning no end. forms change and are not fundamental at all.
What makes you think that? It seems to begin at some point after conception, and end upon death. I've yet to see evidence indicating otherwise.
Re: The unending quest to explain consciousness
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But we can’t predict what new color we’d get by mixing two colors. Can you elaborate more on this point? Links as to why this is impossible would be appreciated. If paint absorbs certain wavelengths while reflecting others (which are the perceived color), wouldn't the mixture of two colors absorb two subsets of the spectrum, and reflect everything else? And if so, why can't it be simulated?
I guess OP refers to the fact that even full knowledge of the visible spectrum cannot tell you how you will perceive the color through your three-dimensional perception system and the brain processor.
Simulations will always be as good as our computing power gets, and the results will be "understood" as good as our perception gets. So, in some sense, both scenarios are the same.