Earlier quoted context omitted.
We live in a world where kids die before they grow up. Gene editing technologies will almost surely reduce the number of children who die before they grow up and lead to higher quality of life for everyone else. I'm not necessarily for gene editing. I think it is probably a long-term certainty and a net good, but it makes me uneasy because it is one of the maybe-this-one-ends-humanity style technologies. That being s…
Why would it end humanity? It may cause greater suffering than any war in history but it is not a serious threat to humanity.
China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
141–150 of 150 posts
Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#142Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#143It seems like a dead certainty that gene editing creates unintended mutations, since to do otherwise would require the technique to be 100% controllable and verifiable, and it is neither. So the only question is whether those unintended mutations are harmful or not, either to the immediate generation or subsequent ones. Because there is so much uncertainty around that question, these kinds of experiments are ethicall…
I don't agree that uncertainty is a valid objection in ethical discussions. That reasoning leads to circular denial: we can't study something because we don't know enough about it, and we don't know enough about it because we can't study it. Rather, I would suggest that the ethical discussion focuses on intended and unintended side-effects of a specific direction of study, and whether the long-term effects can be ali…
Besides even if a particular experiment cannot be done because the outcome is uncertain and we can't have certainty without the experiment then that is circular but not circular reasoning. We cannot simply declare something to be ethical purely because declaring it unethical would not allow us to do something.
Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
Random harmful mutations have happened all day every day as long as life has existed. We are basically designed for dealing with it. But worst case, we can eliminate harmful mutations from being passed on to subsequent generations through screening. I wouldn't worry about the long term problems of that, it's fairly easy to solve. What I would worry about is: a) Short term suffering from failed experiments. b) Reduced…
I'd be more worried about subtle long-term mutations which won't have obviously observable effects at first but will severely disadvantage us in the long run. Or only become enabled in combination with some future mutations. If a gene increases chances of a disease by 5%, how soon do you identify that? Once a gene is widespread enough, good luck preventing gene carriers from reproducing. Most people won't care enough…
Just like dog breeding.
And you can judge how much people care about appearances by the success of plastic surgery business.
Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#145Isn't it the case that each gene does not have a single function? This seems like we're tampering with a many-variable equation for each gene we modify. It's like modifying a function when you're not aware that that function has potentially many side effects, which are necessary.
I don't think anything is closer to a literal pandora's box than gene editing. I have no trouble seeing it going on the same path as asbestos or lead in car fuel: It'll feel almost like magic for a few decades, and by the time we understand how bad we fucked up it'll be too late to fix it properly.
Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#146It seems like a dead certainty that gene editing creates unintended mutations, since to do otherwise would require the technique to be 100% controllable and verifiable, and it is neither. So the only question is whether those unintended mutations are harmful or not, either to the immediate generation or subsequent ones. Because there is so much uncertainty around that question, these kinds of experiments are ethicall…
I don't agree that uncertainty is a valid objection in ethical discussions. That reasoning leads to circular denial: we can't study something because we don't know enough about it, and we don't know enough about it because we can't study it. Rather, I would suggest that the ethical discussion focuses on intended and unintended side-effects of a specific direction of study, and whether the long-term effects can be ali…
An edit that was to the advantage of the baby, with zero disadvantages, but so much so that such edits could give an unfair advantage in society would be ethical.
In fact you could argue that not doing it if the means were available would be unethical.
Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#147It seems like a dead certainty that gene editing creates unintended mutations, since to do otherwise would require the technique to be 100% controllable and verifiable, and it is neither. So the only question is whether those unintended mutations are harmful or not, either to the immediate generation or subsequent ones. Because there is so much uncertainty around that question, these kinds of experiments are ethicall…
I don't agree that uncertainty is a valid objection in ethical discussions. That reasoning leads to circular denial: we can't study something because we don't know enough about it, and we don't know enough about it because we can't study it. Rather, I would suggest that the ethical discussion focuses on intended and unintended side-effects of a specific direction of study, and whether the long-term effects can be ali…
First you contradict your original dismissal, any negative effects on the gene pool most likely can be solved by more research.
Asserting a negative effect on equality is an equally damaging and incorrect opinion. A similar analogy here would be arguing vaccines should be avoided and prevented because not everyone has access to them, thereby having negative effects on equality
Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand that these tests require withdrawing amniotic fluid to analise, and / or getting genetic material from the fetus itself. And my understanding is also that to get the amniotic fluid carries fairly moderate risks of infection etc for the fetus so these screenings aren't necessarily done because of the risks not to mention the costs involved.
I think there are some newer tests which only require maternal blood and can screen for some genetic conditions by filtering extra-cellular genetic material.
AFAIU, if the non-invasive tests turn up positive doctors may recommend (and patients may prefer) amniocentesis for confirmation.
I just find it interesting that California would so quickly embrace such new technology. I think it became required about a year or so after the tests hit the market, even before they became widely known (obv still not widely known). But given the rising costs of healthcare, and the incredible amount of public money spent on developmentally disabled individuals[1], it makes alot of sense. For similar reasons, California has had for many years mandatory blood lead testing for all children living in pre-1978 housing. (I think in most states blood lead testing is only mandated through Federal Medicaid regulations, which require testing for child Medicaid recipients.) California's housing and population explosion coincided with peak consumption of leaded paint and leaded gasoline, so California has a uniquely acute lead problem.
[1] California has very generous educational programs for the disabled (generous relative to most states), partially as a result of state-based constitutional precedent. By generous I mean a ton of money is spent as a fraction of overall expenditures, relative to most (all?) other states. This is a smallish part of why in-classroom expenditures seem meager relative to other states. Many parents, OTOH, likely have lesser opinions about how generous the programs really are. But school-based speech and physical therapists, for example, can make a very decent living in California, even in the Bay Area. Better to work through a private contracting firm; working directly for the school districts tends to pay less, though benefits are better. I know at least one serial entrepreneur who started, built-up, and sold two school-based therapy contracting firms, and has already started a third.
Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
IP theft isn't a moral boundary; it is a legal one. Pro- and Anti- IP positions are not moral positions. I can't claim moral superiority to you because I think copyright should be a year longer or shorter. Enforcing IP law that retards the lifestyle of 20% of the worlds population is arguably the immoral position.
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Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Ban me.