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The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

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Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#21

Post by locopati »

pjc50 wrote: post #5

It's interesting to see how canned phrases to represent certain concepts can become nonsensical when put together : > The Deep South was established by English slave lords from Barbados and was styled as a West Indies-style slave society, Woodard notes. It has a very rigid social structure and fights against government regulation that threatens individual liberty. Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Texas, Georgia, and So…

the same way that 'family values people' enact policies antithetical to family cohesion or 'personal responsibility people' are all about regulating what people do with their bodies or consenually with other people's bodies

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#22

Post by VLM »

danans wrote: post #6
pjc50 wrote: post #5

It's interesting to see how canned phrases to represent certain concepts can become nonsensical when put together : > The Deep South was established by English slave lords from Barbados and was styled as a West Indies-style slave society, Woodard notes. It has a very rigid social structure and fights against government regulation that threatens individual liberty. Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Texas, Georgia, and So…

> The pro- slavery rigid society that somehow values individual liberty? Would anyone be able to explain how that works? It only valued individual liberties for free individuals, like slave owners. Slaves are by definition not free individuals, so the right to individual liberty by definition didn't apply to them. It's practically tautological if you substitute the word "liberty" with "freedom".

The definition of freedom depends on what you value, and what you value varies with time and place. Were sweatshop workers in New York City free? Ranch hand employees out west? Chinese railroad workers in the USA? Are starving workers freer than well fed slaves? Theres a big push underway now to get rid of all American civil rights in favor of security theater, will we be free once we eliminate the Bill of Rights? Kinda unclear what this "free" thing is and who has it.

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#23

Post by lordgrenville »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #18
lordgrenville wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but it's not a tautology. It's saying that free individuals (slave-owners) should have freedom to do stuff they want, e.g. own slaves, without having a government stop them from doing it.

That's the basis of the model - "I do what I want, and you also do what I want." Obviously, it fails as a universal. Freedom that operates on the basis of economic, political, or physical coercion of others isn't freedom at all. Which would be fine in a more mature system, because the basic question in any political organisation is where to place the trade-off between individual freedom and personal responsibility to…

One way out of this is by narrowing your definition of morally relevant others - which historically has excluded women, or slaves, or people of other races (and currently excludes non-human animals, but that's a broader debate...)

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#24

Post by ninkendo »

VLM wrote: post #22
danans wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pro- slavery rigid society that somehow values individual liberty? Would anyone be able to explain how that works? It only valued individual liberties for free individuals, like slave owners. Slaves are by definition not free individuals, so the right to individual liberty by definition didn't apply to them. It's practically tautological if you substitute the word "liberty" with "freedom".

The definition of freedom depends on what you value, and what you value varies with time and place. Were sweatshop workers in New York City free? Ranch hand employees out west? Chinese railroad workers in the USA? Are starving workers freer than well fed slaves? Theres a big push underway now to get rid of all American civil rights in favor of security theater, will we be free once we eliminate the Bill of Rights? Ki…

> Theres a big push underway now to get rid of all American civil rights in favor of security theater

Huh?

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#25

Post by pjc50 »

cowpig wrote: post #15
squiggleblaz wrote: post #14

American state boundaries clearly do not reflect these national regions. Federal states have boundaries that either serve to unite separate territories or to administer a united territory. It has probably a source of strength in the US, that states are either much too small or contain multiple different areas in them, since it fosters a broader, national US identity rather than an identity as a New Netherlander or a…

What do you mean by "weaker federal state" when describing Canada?

I'm guessing this is the undercurrents of demand for independence from Quebec.

I think this shows the importance of linguistic unity in cultural unity and therefore national unity. Germany's "strong federal state" (which is pretty decentralised in practice) is likely also a result of this.

Of course, some people like to turn "is" into "ought", resulting in the problems of the 20th century when some people tried to make the German national borders match the linguistic border.

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#26

Post by dmurray »

squiggleblaz wrote: post #14

American state boundaries clearly do not reflect these national regions. Federal states have boundaries that either serve to unite separate territories or to administer a united territory. It has probably a source of strength in the US, that states are either much too small or contain multiple different areas in them, since it fosters a broader, national US identity rather than an identity as a New Netherlander or a…

Switzerland seems to be doing OK as a counterexample. Its cantons have a high level of self-government and a history as independent states and cultures. Yet Switzerland is a prosperous country with a strong national identity and minimal talk of secession by the cantons.

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#27

Post by tyingq »

squiggleblaz wrote: post #14

American state boundaries clearly do not reflect these national regions. Federal states have boundaries that either serve to unite separate territories or to administer a united territory. It has probably a source of strength in the US, that states are either much too small or contain multiple different areas in them, since it fosters a broader, national US identity rather than an identity as a New Netherlander or a…

"Germany is another federal state made stronger by having internal boundaries that don't reflect historical identities (Bavaria being the weakness)"

Wouldn't the former East German region also reflect historical identify with a hard borderline? (albeit on a short time scale)

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#29

Post by pesmhey »

pjc50 wrote: post #5

It's interesting to see how canned phrases to represent certain concepts can become nonsensical when put together : > The Deep South was established by English slave lords from Barbados and was styled as a West Indies-style slave society, Woodard notes. It has a very rigid social structure and fights against government regulation that threatens individual liberty. Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Texas, Georgia, and So…

The pro- slavery rigid society that somehow values individual liberty? Would anyone be able to explain how that works?

"Don't tell me what I can and can't do with my property!"

These people would have to have considered slaves people in order to extend individual liberty to them.

Re: The eleven nations of the United States and their cultures

#30

Post by 4h53n »

dmurray wrote: post #26
squiggleblaz wrote: post #14

American state boundaries clearly do not reflect these national regions. Federal states have boundaries that either serve to unite separate territories or to administer a united territory. It has probably a source of strength in the US, that states are either much too small or contain multiple different areas in them, since it fosters a broader, national US identity rather than an identity as a New Netherlander or a…

Switzerland seems to be doing OK as a counterexample. Its cantons have a high level of self-government and a history as independent states and cultures. Yet Switzerland is a prosperous country with a strong national identity and minimal talk of secession by the cantons.

Being a much smaller country, in terms of land and population, I would assume variations within must be lighter too.
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