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China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

theguardian.com

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Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#121

Post by baq »

wahern wrote: post #112
vannevar wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was not the same debate, because innoculation doesn't have as much capacity for far-reaching consequences. With regard to the notion of relying on the stability of a complex system, they tend to return to a quasi-equilibrium state, not necessarily the state they were in before being 'kicked'. And rate of change matters. Gene editing has the capacity to vastly accelerate the rate of mutation---indeed, that's it's p…

1) Inoculation resulted in known historical outbreaks that killed many people. 2) Vaccinations, not to mention treatments like antibiotics, have resulted in accelerated mutation of disease. It's a serious concern and a growing problem in ways both predicted and unpredicted. And, yes, these have occurred together . We can argue in circles all day, unless you can point out some novel effect, even hypothetical, that has…

what is this thread about again? last I checked if I get vaccinated or take some antibiotics this won't result in my children also getting them, and with gene editing that's a very likely possibility. the impact is on a wholly different level. e.g. can somebody get a patent on genes inserted into an embryo? what if the person born from this embryo then passes the gene? there's been rulings about GMO crops about these questions.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#123

Post by mkl »

The_rationalist wrote: post #117

Every human has 60000 mutations per day on average.

Those are in individual cells, and almost certainly all different, so they have little overall effect. This is something that (if it works correctly) affects every cell, in the same way. That's very different.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#124

Post by MayeulC »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #113
anon73044 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that's exactly what it is. Genes are the most tightly coupled code in existence (literally!), and we've barely scratched the surface in seeing what changes we could make and where to make them without bringing the whole thing crashing down.

Who coded that crap?!

The figurative equivalent of a million monkeys pressing random keys in an IDE for hundreds of millions of years until it compiles. Rinse and repeat.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#126

Post by kabouseng »

wahern wrote: post #95
im3w1l wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There are two types of screening that can be carried out as part of the IVF process. Preimplantation genetic test for aneuploidies (PGT-A) screens for any chromosomal abnormalities that may be present, while other preimplantation genetic tests (PGT) checks for specific conditions such as Down’s syndrome, Huntington’s disease and muscular dystrophy, among others. In fact PGT can now be used with IVF to test for nearl…

Many chromosomal abnormalities can be reliably detected at 10 weeks into a pregnancy, if not earlier. 10 weeks is well within the window at which many if not most women would be comfortable terminating. In California these tests are required to be covered by insurance for at-risk women (i.e. 38 and older, etc). I imagine at some point these tests, as well as more precise ones, are likely to become standard procedure…

I understand that these tests require withdrawing amniotic fluid to analise, and / or getting genetic material from the fetus itself. And my understanding is also that to get the amniotic fluid carries fairly moderate risks of infection etc for the fetus so these screenings aren't necessarily done because of the risks not to mention the costs involved.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#128

Post by TheGallopedHigh »

imron wrote: post #89
soulofmischief wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that would make for a good book, exploring the society and problems which result from a genetically modified caste of people who are prevented from breeding with non-modified people. A modern-day Romeo and Juliet.

The film Gattaca explores some of these themes.

Great film. For those who haven’t yet seen it, I would highly recommended it

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#129

Post by IanSanders »

im3w1l wrote: post #72
vannevar wrote: post #8

It seems like a dead certainty that gene editing creates unintended mutations, since to do otherwise would require the technique to be 100% controllable and verifiable, and it is neither. So the only question is whether those unintended mutations are harmful or not, either to the immediate generation or subsequent ones. Because there is so much uncertainty around that question, these kinds of experiments are ethicall…

Random harmful mutations have happened all day every day as long as life has existed. We are basically designed for dealing with it. But worst case, we can eliminate harmful mutations from being passed on to subsequent generations through screening. I wouldn't worry about the long term problems of that, it's fairly easy to solve. What I would worry about is: a) Short term suffering from failed experiments. b) Reduced…

I'd be more worried about subtle long-term mutations which won't have obviously observable effects at first but will severely disadvantage us in the long run. Or only become enabled in combination with some future mutations. If a gene increases chances of a disease by 5%, how soon do you identify that?

Once a gene is widespread enough, good luck preventing gene carriers from reproducing. Most people won't care enough to screen potential partners, or even worse, it could create social tension.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#130

Post by Gatsky »

vannevar wrote: post #8

It seems like a dead certainty that gene editing creates unintended mutations, since to do otherwise would require the technique to be 100% controllable and verifiable, and it is neither. So the only question is whether those unintended mutations are harmful or not, either to the immediate generation or subsequent ones. Because there is so much uncertainty around that question, these kinds of experiments are ethicall…

This isn't really it. It's not like this sort of thing would have been OK if editing was 10 or 100 times less likely to cause off target effects.

The way the whole thing happened was stupid. It was the wrong population of patients (healthy children), who had other options for avoiding HIV infection (antiretroviral suppression in parents, surrogacy, etc etc). And the fool decided this was the right population in which to employ highly experimental and underdeveloped gene technology? Any scientist with a modicum of integrity or common sense would never have done this. It's just bad science.

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