China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations' • Hacker News Board

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#41

Post by shrimp_emoji » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #30

hatracksat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The genes won't care that the scientists playing with them were unethical. The only reason your attitude seems appealing is because nobody wants to believe eventually this strategy will give the Chinese a superior understanding of gene editing.

What good will a superior understanding of gene editing be if we cease being a civilized society where scientific research can be nurtured in the first place? Ethics are not optional to science, they are integral to the social foundation upon which science rests.

Ethics (e.g., scruples against fabricating research for personal gain) are actually what keeps Western science a cut above Eastern science.

Obviously, though, ethics aren't a binary concept; you can value eugenics at the expense of suffering and be committed to the quality of your research.

And good science knows no politics.

People do, though, and they're the scientists.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#42

Post by amelius » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #30

hatracksat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The genes won't care that the scientists playing with them were unethical. The only reason your attitude seems appealing is because nobody wants to believe eventually this strategy will give the Chinese a superior understanding of gene editing.

What good will a superior understanding of gene editing be if we cease being a civilized society where scientific research can be nurtured in the first place? Ethics are not optional to science, they are integral to the social foundation upon which science rests.

Yes, standing on the shoulders of giants is ok ... but behave while doing so.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#43

Post by ak217 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #29

ak217 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference between somatic and germline editing. Surgery is like somatic editing. It's elective, based on medical need, and its effects are confined to one individual. Germline editing is more like forcing an entire population to undergo surgery that is claimed to enhance their bodies. Nobody is particularly concerned about somatic editing where a medical need exists. Everybody is rightly freaking out…

IIRC, when I studied biology in secondary school and as a freshman in college, it was believed that gametes were completely isolated and untouchable by viral infections. Turns out this is not true. But if you believe that gametes are incredibly fragile, I can see how it would be easy to believe this as otherwise you'd expect to see mutants everywhere. I realize the stakes are higher for germline editing, but rational…

I don't follow. Gametes are isolated from many viral infections, but even assuming that a gamete undergoes viral mutagenesis, that's not evolutionarily novel (viruses follow relatively predictable insertion patterns, and transposons are basically degenerate/grounded viruses that are almost certain to generate mutation events in any given zygote, unlike viral mutagenesis). It's also outside our control, unlike germline editing, which is not random in completely novel ways.

It is precisely because the stakes are so much higher that the calculus changes. We have to be reasonably certain that we can safely edit germline by experimenting with somatic editing and germline in lab animals before we can do something as consequential as deploying it clinically.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#44

Post by tropo » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

Identical twins have hundreds of differences across the entire genome. None of those are carefully planned.

Prior to that, during generation of sperm and egg, many other unintended mutations occur. Each chromosome typically breaks and misjoins (crossing haphazardly with the matched one) about 3 times.

This experiment is really mild by comparison.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#45

Post by VectorLock » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #16

deusofnull wrote: post #3

Back in my genetics class in Uni, unitended mutations from gene editing struck me as a concern almost immediately. and its scary to think about. these unknown mutations could be benign, harmful, or even helpful, but if they entered the population through procreation... i mean i had an anxiety that the whole human genome could be damaged at a fundamental level. the complexity of the biological machinery that occurs du…

> natural system of transcription, translation, and protein synthesis at the core of DNA still makes mistakes. Exactly, which means the system is resilient , which means it's more forgiving of random mutations introduced by gene editing, which is perhaps why most scientists are less concerned than you think they ought to be. Imagine if we took the same approach to surgery--overly worried that scar tissue of any kind…

The human body, incredibly robust and frustratingly fragile at the same time.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#46

Post by deusofnull » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:14 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #21

pythonaut_16 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate: Scar tissue doesn't get passed to offspring or propagated throughout the population though.

To play the angel's advocate (or whatever is the next-step reverse of devil's advocate): natural selection helps eliminate problematic genes in populations. A good chunk of harmful mutations will prevent people from procreating, either by killing them first, or making it unlikely for them to find a mate.

>A good chunk of harmful mutations will prevent people from procreating, either by killing them first, or making it unlikely for them to find a mate.

well, what about a recessive allele that doesnt cause problems in the first generation but does in subsequent? What about co-dependent deadly / devastating gene expressions between newly added genes that pop up after 2 people with these co-active genes expressing like a hundred years from now? look, given what i studied and why, i would never say we should forever abstain from gene editing technology. BUT, we have to hold those who conduct genetic modification experiments to the absolute highest ethical and engineering standards. It is akin to the level of power given by atomic science, maybe even more. one can be sure that the powers of a God would include the power of the atom and the power of the gene near the top of the list.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#47

Post by manicdee » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:16 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #30

hatracksat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The genes won't care that the scientists playing with them were unethical. The only reason your attitude seems appealing is because nobody wants to believe eventually this strategy will give the Chinese a superior understanding of gene editing.

What good will a superior understanding of gene editing be if we cease being a civilized society where scientific research can be nurtured in the first place? Ethics are not optional to science, they are integral to the social foundation upon which science rests.

Would you agree that China sees eye to eye with the West regarding other ethical concerns such as copyright, patents, organ transplants, or genocide?

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#48

Post by deusofnull » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:16 PM UTC

hatracksat wrote: post #17

Who cares about unintended consequences if you're the first person to study them? China gets to deal with a novel problem and will get novel rewards eventually because the west let itself get soft. EDIT: To all the people making Nazi comparisons, we stole the atom bomb from the Nazis. Their science across multiple disciplines was on par or superior. We're smarter than them now because we /destroyed/ them. It's easy t…

Ok Dr. Mengele

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#49

Post by deusofnull » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

hatracksat wrote: post #32

kkwak wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

true, if tech is the only goal. but I would choose to be lower tech in this case. But perhaps my choices would affect those who might come after me... (That too is both ways though). Some might bring up all the medical advances that came out of the tortures and "studies" from Japan and Nazi Germany. Certainly many advances were made... My friend once told me that there are certain medical "study" records available th…

The tech won't exist In a vacuum though. Suppose this eventually gives the Chinese an edge in precision medicine, your hands might be clean as far as the messy work but unless you ban citizens from visiting how are you going to regulate the health products that will emerge eventually? We can bury our heads in the sand but eventually the rising tide will get our socks wet unless we have the foresight to prepare a litt…

Look again lots of people here are saying that the research can continue but must be held to not only ethical but engineering standards of the highest order. If youre willing to compromise on those to achieve strategic goals between nation states, than thats a political or moral distinction and ill let it weigh on your conscience if you create a generation of infertile children 80 years from now.

Re: China gene-edited baby experiment 'may have created unintended mutations'

#50

Post by anon73044 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

wnmurphy wrote: post #31

Isn't it the case that each gene does not have a single function? This seems like we're tampering with a many-variable equation for each gene we modify. It's like modifying a function when you're not aware that that function has potentially many side effects, which are necessary.

Actually, that's exactly what it is. Genes are the most tightly coupled code in existence (literally!), and we've barely scratched the surface in seeing what changes we could make and where to make them without bringing the whole thing crashing down.