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Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

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Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#171
post #2

This is an interesting twist in the processor wars, here is the #1 cloud company that is turning its profits in providing cloud services in to processor R&D to build new CPUs. This is a much more important announcement than the press is giving it credit for. I have argued in the past the Intel "lost" the smartphone CPU war because Apple decided not to wait for them to come up with some high margin processor compromis…

Agree and to add a few more things.

These ARM CPU are made with ARM Core Design ( NEOVERSE N1 ) , which means there are no reason why Google or Microsoft, or even Apple and Facebook cant have their own N1. And they will because of the competitive advantage as you mentioned.

This solves the Chicken and Egg Problem where ARM CPU from Qualcomm and Ampere or other Vendors could not get into Server Market due to software compatibility. And no one was willing to invest porting and making sure every software runs well on these chip without Hardware. ( One of the reason why Qualcomm exit the Server Market ) Now Amazon is doing both, all the Open Source Web Stack AWS offers will support ARM, assuming Amazon upstream all those work.

And once those Software are ARM ready, other smaller Cloud Providers such as Digital Ocean, OVH, Linode etc.. will offer and switch to ARM once there are ARM CPU available.

On top of my head, the last estimate HyperScaler represent 50% of Intel's DC and Enterprise Revenue. Intel's yearly revenue from DC is roughly $20B, so we are talking about a potential lost of $10B+ over the next decade. And DC has been the most profitable segment for Intel.

Microsoft now also has new incentives to port Windows to work on ARM. ( A lot of Azure Customers runs out Windows VM ) They are also on their way with Windows on Snapdragon. Although I think it will be a few years before it becomes stable enough and mainstream.

So 5 years down the road, You now have the servers on AWS running on ARM, all mobile and Tablet are on ARM. Intel are selling less unit to amortise its cost of R&D in each leading node. AMD with better Node fighting for marketshare. If Windows on ARM worked, it is only a matter of time Apple moves its whole Mac line across to ARM as well, may be 2025+. ( Pro Application developers will have incentive to port their work to ARM on both platform )

If Andy Grove were still alive, or his apprentice Pat Gelsinger were still around at Intel, they would be facing the same dilemma half a century ago, -Should Intel invest more in protecting the memory business and fight Japanese manufacturers or should the company flee from memories market and create a new growth market?

And this time around, Should Intel invest more in protecting the x86 business and fight ARM or should the company flee from x86 and create new growth market?

It was nearly 5 years ago Intel announced Custom Foundry. They had a chance to take on and compete with TSMC. They were far too worried their best tech and IP would info would leak out. They would rather do it all by themselves. 5 years later, I doubt even if they are reopening Custom Foundry there will be any customer wanting to sign up.

Sorry if this is a grim outlook of Intel, I am sure they will stick around, just like any great companies once were, IBM, Sun, HP, they will have a long tail of decline until they become mostly irrelevant.

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD is also eating Intel's lunch in datacenter. Last time I checked (I don't keep track of Intel pricing) AMD had a 5x price/performance advantage over Intel at the launch of EPYC ROME.

Have there been any published benchmarks of relevant datacenter workloads on this CPU? I certainly haven’t seen any. The previous generation EPYC was really slow on branchy code, despite looking ok on ffmpeg benchmarks and the like.

We just published this:

https://www.scylladb.com/2019/12/05/is-arm-ready-for-server-...

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#173

I wish individual consumers could go out and buy these processors. Amazon really has little incentive to sell them - they are not primarily a chip manufacturing business, and anyways, why give away their hard-fought competitive advantage? - but damn, it would be cool to stick one of these in a workstation and watch it fly.

Stay tuned and look into Nuvia.

https://nuviainc.com/

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#174

What is "Graviton2" in this context? There's no Wikipedia page for it, and the regular google search results all loop back to this AWS announcement.

I am gathering that it's a chip, a CPU chip, seem to be ARM architecture not intel x86; and is an important chip or will be due to this? I don't know why though.

Here's our take. This is big.

https://www.scylladb.com/2019/12/05/is-arm-ready-for-server-...

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#175
post #19

Its interesting but I wouldn't say Graviton2 is likely to succeed. Every ARM based PC I've seen has been disappointingly slow, which I dont really understand because phones usually are amazingly quick. DEC Alpha, Sun Sparc, MIPS, PowerPC couldn't keep up with Intel in the recent past either. Intel CPUs aren't cheap, but they're a fraction of the cost of a server. All adds up to interesting innovation but not necessar…

> Every ARM based PC I've seen has been disappointingly slow Most recent ARM PCs were explicitly low-power low-performance. That was the goal, not a description of the architecture. The mobile part pretty much confirms that. The ARM chips that Amazon is putting in the servers is nothing like what you'll find in a consumer arm laptop.

Bingo. https://www.scylladb.com/2019/12/05/is-arm-ready-for-server-...

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#176
post #19

Its interesting but I wouldn't say Graviton2 is likely to succeed. Every ARM based PC I've seen has been disappointingly slow, which I dont really understand because phones usually are amazingly quick. DEC Alpha, Sun Sparc, MIPS, PowerPC couldn't keep up with Intel in the recent past either. Intel CPUs aren't cheap, but they're a fraction of the cost of a server. All adds up to interesting innovation but not necessar…

> Every ARM based PC I've seen has been disappointingly slow, The only ARM based PCs I've ever seen are the Raspberry Pi and other products intended to compete with the Pi, and one of the core features of these PCs is being a complete computer for under $100. Keeping the price low was always the top priority, not performance.

The Graviton2 is about performance. We did tests. This thing blitzes.

https://www.scylladb.com/2019/12/05/is-arm-ready-for-server-...

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#177
post #19

Its interesting but I wouldn't say Graviton2 is likely to succeed. Every ARM based PC I've seen has been disappointingly slow, which I dont really understand because phones usually are amazingly quick. DEC Alpha, Sun Sparc, MIPS, PowerPC couldn't keep up with Intel in the recent past either. Intel CPUs aren't cheap, but they're a fraction of the cost of a server. All adds up to interesting innovation but not necessar…

> Every ARM based PC I've seen has been disappointingly slow, which I dont really understand because phones usually are amazingly quick. Maybe it’s a latency vs throughput thing? As far as I know, ARM is great at balancing latency and power consumption, but behind x64 in throughput. [citation needed]

Better throughput. Our tests confirm:

https://www.scylladb.com/2019/12/05/is-arm-ready-for-server-...

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#178
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is also only useful to those who know it? I mean, nerds love to shout about the superiority of this or that, but they're mostly just parroting their tribe motto. If you have reason to really care about endian order, I would encourage you to do more research than you'll find in an HN comment. Perhaps there's even more than one right answer depending on circumstance.

I don't have too much knowledge in that area, but my understanding is as follows: for a software engineer big endian simpler to use, for hardware engineer little endian is simpler to implement. I think it's similar to scientific calculator vs RPN calculator.

I don't think big vs little endian makes a difference in terms of hardware implementation. It's just a simple swap of wires.

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#179
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC isn't a US company.

Correct, but they do a lot of fab work for other companies. It's not absolutely necessary to have your own fab to be competitive unless your volumes are huge... at which point you can afford it. Apple have $245bn on hand, so they could have a dozen $20bn fabs if they felt the need. Bezos has $180bn and no idea what to do with it. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/29/apple-now-has-tk-cash-on-han...

They could, but the answer to "what should I spend $20b on" for both pretty clearly isn't "a fab where at the end of the day you might get a fraction of a percent better costs on bare dies from the vertical integration versus just buying from TSMC or whoever"

Fabs are both a commodity, and take a high capital investment. Unless you have a geopolitical reason to create one and you get .gov kickbacks to make it happen, then there's way better uses of your money.

Re: Coming Soon: AWS Graviton2 Processor for AWS

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment seems kinda slanted. AVX-512 debuted on Xeon because datacenter operators asked for it. It does not “downclock a whole chip”, it gates the core where it is active and there’s not even that penalty on the current generation parts. “10nm” is marketing fluff which has little or nothing to do with actual semiconductor construction. “Chiplet” is also marketing-speak for “wow this memory topology is hard to pr…

Uhh source on AVX512 not downclocking on modern CPUs? We benchmarked ML workloads on the newest chips the cloud had to offer and the slowdown was a significant problem because, as the parent comment said, it is very hard to reason about whether the benefits of vectorized ops will outweigh the the reduced clock speed. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not - which is a major problem when you have to specify instr…

It is a major problem to figure out what instructions to use but it's a lot more nuanced than you seem to imply. In the first place you seem to assume that "not running at the max turbo speed that's printed in the marketing literature" is equivalent to "downclocking". However, there are a huge number of reasons why a core might not clock up, including the number of active cores on the package. The first Xeons that shipped with AVX-512 had turbo clocks that were 25% lower than the headline turbo clocks, e.g. 2400MHz instead of 3200MHz. This is still pretty good, and the base clock is 2100MHz.

With the newest Ice Lake processors ("10th generation") the all-cores-active, all-avx-512 max clock speeds are the same as max scalar clock speeds. You can try this out yourself with the avx-turbo program.

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