How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games • Hacker News Board

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#11

Post by mxwsn » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

kevinventullo wrote: post #6

I would imagine most randomizations render the game impossible, since the first dungeon will require a specific item to complete, and any other item won't help you. Are players forced to leverage glitches? Or is there some way to restrict only to "viable" randomizations?

Randomizers are restricted to follow a tree branching logic to ensure that the game can be completed based on all accessible items at any given moment. For some games, there can be several difficulty tiers of logics. In harder logics, the game might only be beatable if the player is aware of an obscure glitch or nuance in the game engine.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#12

Post by simlevesque » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

jdlyga wrote: post #9

I just finished a run of Link to the Past / Super Metroid crossover randomizer. And it's one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. The items for both games are randomized and distributed across both games. For example, I found the first sword in Link to the Past above Samus's ship in Crateria in a secret area.

Here is what it looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWNGWrZ8wec

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#13

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

kevinventullo wrote: post #6

I would imagine most randomizations render the game impossible, since the first dungeon will require a specific item to complete, and any other item won't help you. Are players forced to leverage glitches? Or is there some way to restrict only to "viable" randomizations?

[deleted]

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#14

Post by OatMilkLatte » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

kevinventullo wrote: post #6

I would imagine most randomizations render the game impossible, since the first dungeon will require a specific item to complete, and any other item won't help you. Are players forced to leverage glitches? Or is there some way to restrict only to "viable" randomizations?

Randomizers have logic that restricts the way the items can be randomized. For example, in the default mode of the Link to the Past randomizer, you need the boots to get the item off the top of the bookshelf in the library, so that item will never be the boots. You need either the lamp or the fire rod to get through certain caves and sections of palaces, so you're guaranteed to be able to find either the fire rod or the lamp prior to having to complete those palaces.

Using glitches can help you "sequence break", to a certain extent - if you use a glitch called "fake flippers", you can reach certain areas of LttP that would normally require the flippers without having them. You'll never be required to do so to beat a seed in default mode, but doing so can save a ton of time if there's a required item blocked by the flippers and the flippers are a pain to get.

The LttP randomizer also includes "glitches required" modes, where varying levels of glitch execution might be required to complete the game, and the logic is relaxed accordingly.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#15

Post by aquova » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

I'm pleased to see that the randomizer community has been getting a lot more attention as of late. I made my own randomizer[0] a few years ago (shameless plug), and it was the perfect mix of retro gaming knowledge, low level hacking, and more modern programming and design. It can both be incredibly frustrating and rewarding figuring out how to modify a game into a way that is new and refreshing.

[0]: https://github.com/aquova/KA-Rando

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#16

Post by at_a_remove » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

Ah, this is familiar.

Decades ago, I had more or less topped out playing Othello against my Apple ][e. A game could be completed in under ninety seconds, with my moves being as fast as that of the computer. I took photos (with actual film) of beating the machine long before the board could be filled, but I was getting stale, essentially training myself to fight against this deterministic opponent who couldn't have been all that bright, given the time. I began to make deliberately bad choices in the early game to see if I could recover, but even that wore out.

I eventually settled on POKEing parts of the memory where the game was held. Typically, this resulted in an un-runnable program, or the program would place pieces on the lines rather than between them, all sorts of oddball behavior. Every so often, though, I would get a working game that would play against me using the usual rules, but differently enough that it would throw me off.

It was primitive but amusing.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#17

Post by throwaway2048 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

msla wrote: post #3

Zardoz84 wrote: post #2

Not mention of classic DooM. Many "relative" modern mod WADs, add new variations of monsters and randomize the spawn of these variations. So playing the same map, never is equal. And for my, this make the game far fun and playable. Anyone, should try Complex Doom mod...

> And for my, this make the game far funnier and playable. It's interesting how little the English words "fun" and "funny" have to do with each other; a game like Doom is indeed fun, but it isn't funny in the slightest unless you have a very odd sense of humor. It's also interesting to see how this oddness between "fun" and "funny" translates into people trying to learn English and stumbling over it.

Its interesting to see what the smuggliest possible grammar correction post can be, you almost got there.

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#18

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#19

Post by blackearl » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

msla wrote: post #3

Zardoz84 wrote: post #2

Not mention of classic DooM. Many "relative" modern mod WADs, add new variations of monsters and randomize the spawn of these variations. So playing the same map, never is equal. And for my, this make the game far fun and playable. Anyone, should try Complex Doom mod...

> And for my, this make the game far funnier and playable. It's interesting how little the English words "fun" and "funny" have to do with each other; a game like Doom is indeed fun, but it isn't funny in the slightest unless you have a very odd sense of humor. It's also interesting to see how this oddness between "fun" and "funny" translates into people trying to learn English and stumbling over it.

Wolfenstein's infamous difficulty selection was fun and funny

Re: How “randomizers” are breathing new life into old games

#20

Post by wcarss » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #16

Ah, this is familiar. Decades ago, I had more or less topped out playing Othello against my Apple ][e. A game could be completed in under ninety seconds, with my moves being as fast as that of the computer. I took photos (with actual film) of beating the machine long before the board could be filled, but I was getting stale, essentially training myself to fight against this deterministic opponent who couldn't have be…

This sounds like an amusement source for an immortal being locked in a prison with just an Apple ][e during a randomly selected century (decade? year?) of their existence -- maybe an unexplored subplot of groundhog day? Anyway, that's really cool!