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Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

sciencemag.org

201–210 of 242 posts

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#201

When I was growing up we had a set of encyclopedias from the 70s. They were predicting a new ice age coming if we didn't change our ways. Anyone else remember this? I doubt I can find them online but I'll look.

There was a paper by Rasool and Schneider in 1971 that was behind this, I think. "Our ways" would've been industrial particulate pollution, where a 4x increase, sustained, risked kicking off a new ice age. Schneider later retracted the findings in 1974.

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#202
post #173

There were dozens and dozens of "climate models" which predicted everything from global cooling to a fiery wasteland and everything in between. Of course you could go back and find a model that "predicted" correctly because every possibility was predicted. That's like dozens and dozens of "stock price models" predicting FB stock to go up, down and stay the same. Of course one is guaranteed to be correct. What is "sci…

Could you name the climate model that predicted a "fiery wasteland"? What exactly does this mean? Also: as has been pointed out, in TFA and elsewhere in this thread, the authors of the linked study did not cherry-pick the models.

Not sure about wastelands, but cooling was promised by authoritative sources indeed.

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#203
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the cooling trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. ... If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic. ``A major climatic change would force…

Meteorologists are not, and have never been, scientists. Their opinion on climate is no more valid than any other lay persons. It is like equating the physicists and engineers who develop new MRI machines with the technicians who press the button at the imaging center. Time and Newsweek are not scientific sources. Your whole post is just nonsense.

Wow. You've just insulted an entire field of research.

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#204
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is just completely nonsensical and intellectually dishonest. This is not at all what this paper did, nor what any remotely credible scientific study ever does.

> This comment is just completely nonsensical and intellectually dishonest. I'm sorry you feel that way. Would be interested to find which parts you felt was "nonsensical and intellectually dishonest" so I expand on it and clarify it for you. Hard to respond to an ad hominem. > This is not at all what this paper did, nor what any remotely credible scientific study ever does. It's exactly what it did. How about this.…

No, that was a statement of fact. The core problem is that your comment (ironically) commits the very offense that you are falsely projecting onto the authors. Namely, you are redefining concrete terms to fit the meaning that you want them to have (=nonsense) and generating your own set of easily-disprovable "facts" and stating them as truth (=intellectual dishonesty). I feel exasperated and exhausted from spending my evening responding to shallow anti-science trolling (note: not an ad hominem since I'm addressing your words and not you as a person), which led to my response. But since you asked politely, let's walk through a fiery wasteland of mangled logic.

>There were dozens and dozens of "climate models" which predicted everything from global cooling to a fiery wasteland and everything in between. > What is "scientific" about this? It's simply people who want to prove something and then narrowly searching for the data to prove that point and ignoring everything else.

The paper clearly states their methodology, which included a literature review to find all published climate models that produce a numeric forecast for future average temperatures. I quoted the relevant section in a different comment. If they missed or ignored dozens and dozens of other published climate models, then find them and show us. Otherwise, you're explicitly accusing the authors and publishers of peer-reviewed science of committing research malpractice.

>Of course you could go back and find a model that "predicted" correctly because every possibility was predicted.

The output of a climate model (in this context) is an expected value (i.e. a single real number) of the global mean temperature at time t (in years). It is true that if the support of a random variable is the real numbers, then every outcome in (-inf, +inf) is weighted by some probability density (and yet any particular outcome in the set of reals occurs with zero probability!). But it is decidely untrue that the model predictions analyzed by this study (or produced by climate scientists in the time period considered by the study) contained the set of all possible outcomes. It data evaluated is one temperature value per model per year are published right here--take a look: https://github.com/hausfath/OldModels/tree/master/references

>That's like dozens and dozens of "stock price models" predicting FB stock to go up, down and stay the same. Of course one is guaranteed to be correct.

Effectively the same fallacy as above, but with a discrete number of outcomes. The point of probabilistic forecasts is not to be correct (this goes against the definition), it's to estimate the likelihood that a certain outcome will occur in the future given information known up until the current time (ideally--but not necessarily--so that some rational decision can be made). Laypeople often incorrectly redefine prediction to meaning the black-or-white selection of a particular future outcome. I could go on, but I suggest you read this masterpiece instead: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-media-has-a-probabi... (or Thinking, Fast and Slow for the human psychology lens on this problem of misunderstanding the nature of uncertainty).

>If a "anticlimatemag" opposed to the climate change agenda had an article titled "Even 50-year-old climate models were wrong about global warming", would you be defending it as vigorously?

Um, no? I do not and will not defend blatantly false anti-science regardless of the source or agenda. That is extra true of anti-science that supports an avoidable existential threat to half of all species, countless current and future human lives (especially in the developing world, who bear most of the costs while contributing a negligible amount to the problem), and perhaps to civilization and the era of an inhabitable Earth itself.

But as the essential quote goes, "All models are wrong, but some are useful". It's always possible for disingenous headlines like the hypothetical Climate models are useful because they enable us to (quite accurately, it turns out) estimate risks to our single most precious resource, which then allows us to take rational action to minimize that risk (and other models, e.g. those produced by environmental economists, suggest ways to balance the costs of mitigative action).

Your comments, on the other hand, are not useful (so far...).

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#205
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the cooling trend, as well as over its specific impact on local weather conditions. But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century. ... If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic. ``A major climatic change would force…

I too heard back then about how scientists were nearly unanimous in their consensus. I wonder how old these people are swearing that we are wrong and hallucinating. Most of them were undoubtedly born long after these events.

I remember two occasions in the seventies that climate cooling was reported. Both times it was presented as something of "here's a bit of a crazy idea" for the last spot of the news. I don't remember any of the pop science programmes that I used to watch avidly back then ever covering it, though every series had one or two slots for some crazy or outlier idea... Sometimes to see potential, sometimes to debunk.

In the early 80s I picked up one of the "coming ice age" paperbacks, remaindered down to pennies, in the same category as Von Danekin's Chariots of the Gods and his Egyptian aliens. It was absolute garbage, but that's beside the point here. I probably still have it at the back of a bookshelf. Yet already by the early 80s climate heating was coming up in conjunction with acid rain and ozone depletion - they were a holy trinity that often seemed to come together, and they were starting to crop up regularly. Ultimately reporting of all increased throughout the decade, leading to action on ozone and acid rain, and formation of IPCC, at the end of the decade but also the start of the industry moves to oppose via disinformation and obfuscation - the tobacco playbook. Like the Bush administration effort to rebrand climate heating as climate crisis - as that sounds benign and normal.

So I'm old enough, and I doubt your tale - perhaps some sources were reporting it poorly, perhaps the US bought into some climate cooling cult in a way that was completely and entirely unseen here in Europe.

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#206
post #48

Where is the story hère though? So they looked retroactively and found some models in the past that fitted with current observations even though they had no clue that China would become such a powerful force in terms of CO2 emissions? If you run random models and wait long enough you will always be able to find at least one model that predicted the current observations. That does NOT mean the models were right, it me…

Whether or not China emitted lots of CO2 doesn't matter here. The old studies didn't predict how much CO2 the world would emit. They predicted how much the planet would warm, for various amounts of CO2 emissions. It turned out they were correct about that. Among the models this study looked at was Hansen's. That's the NASA scientist who testified about global warming to Congress in 1988. It'd be quite a coincidence i…

Thank you for an intelligent comment.

There are people downthread who are arguing that because numerical instability bugs exist and climate models are complicated, climate models can’t be trusted. Literally any flimsy pretext is used to dismiss work that people don’t like.

This conversation is dominated by people who have just enough knowledge to defend their pre-conceptions, but no more.

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#207
post #48

Where is the story hère though? So they looked retroactively and found some models in the past that fitted with current observations even though they had no clue that China would become such a powerful force in terms of CO2 emissions? If you run random models and wait long enough you will always be able to find at least one model that predicted the current observations. That does NOT mean the models were right, it me…

I assume I’m not the first making this point, but I think they’re evaluating all the models, not just the ones that they know did well.

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#208
post #176

I’m confused as hell to be honest. A few years ago they said there was a global warming pause.[1]. They seemed so sure it was happening that Nature devoted a whole issue to it. Then they came back and said “actually it never happened”.[2] Shouldn’t it be pretty straightforward to tell whether there was warming or not? [1] https://www.nature.com/collections/sthnxgntvp [2] https://insideclimatenews.org/news/18122018/gl…

Most scientists didn’t think much of the idea of a pause, but skeptics started beating the drum so consistently and loudly after a few years after 2001 that the media began asking the question pretty consistently, and the climate science community had to spend time answering the question.

There was never some broadly held idea that warming dynamics had paused.

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#209

It does seem like survivorship bias could be a factor. The article talks about how some of the old models were off until they "corrected" them. All right, and did they apply the same scrutiny to the apparently "correct" ones? "All of the models predicted this (except for the ones that didn't.)

The only correction I see referenced was the amount of CO2 produced by people after the papers were written. Annual CO2 emissions from human industry is an input to the model, rather than the model itself, but it does affect the result and can only be estimated when the models were published. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Unless I overlooked other changes.

Re: Even 50-year-old climate models correctly predicted global warming

#210
post #173

There were dozens and dozens of "climate models" which predicted everything from global cooling to a fiery wasteland and everything in between. Of course you could go back and find a model that "predicted" correctly because every possibility was predicted. That's like dozens and dozens of "stock price models" predicting FB stock to go up, down and stay the same. Of course one is guaranteed to be correct. What is "sci…

This was the point of the paper, look at the old models and see how they performed.

How else would you do this?

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