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How to play with people who are better than you

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Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#141

Post by StacyRoberts »

tluyben2 wrote: post #132
StacyRoberts wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious to learn more about those monopoly strategies and rules against them. I think there are times for both kind of play. It's annoying when people only play one kind of way. It's like beating you is all that matters to them.

I have not played it with only adults for a long time, only with (young) children mixed and parents/family; there are a lot of examples to ruin the game (for me and kids and most adults except 'the winners' (woohoo! I beat some kids at a boardgame!)); one of them (one of the most annoying imho) being that if you pick up (at least) 1 of every monopoly and then refuse to trade/sell unless it's for crazy amounts. So no-…

We had a house rule where no trading could happen until all the properties were owned by someone. Created a frenzy and lots of excitement waiting for the last one to be rolled on.

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#142

Post by setToNull »

kazagistar wrote: post #133
logfromblammo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of Monopoly is to make money for the owner of the trademark, and condition people to buy games based on inertia, advertising, and nostalgia rather than complexity, balance, or fun.

Fortunately we have a plethora of much better games now. I think monopoly will be a quirk of history soon. How many boomers have never played monopoly (and hopefully never will) because they have so many other games to play.

I don't understand. Boomers? People born between 1946 and 1964? I think most Boomers in North America and Europe have played Monopoly at least once. "Monopoly has been translated into 47 languages. It's played in 114 countries. It's sold more than 275 million copies. Hasbro prints $30 billion in Monopoly money each year, and well more than $3 trillion has been printed since 1935." -CNN https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/19/living/feat-monopoly-80th-ann...

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#143

Post by ysr23 »

kazagistar wrote: post #133
logfromblammo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of Monopoly is to make money for the owner of the trademark, and condition people to buy games based on inertia, advertising, and nostalgia rather than complexity, balance, or fun.

Fortunately we have a plethora of much better games now. I think monopoly will be a quirk of history soon. How many boomers have never played monopoly (and hopefully never will) because they have so many other games to play.

Boomers? Did you mean millennials?

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#144

Post by ulysses »

narag wrote: post #19
dragontamer wrote: post #4

Playing with people who are better than you is easy. Just accept they're better than you and keep losing. Decide if you are comfortable with your current skill level or not. If you want to get better, train up. If you are happy with your skill level, then keep losing. That's fine, and I think its healthy to decide to place limits on your skill. Skill is an infinite treadmill: you can continuously get better at pretty…

I learned chess playing always against a friend that won every single time. I didn't give up. I joined a club and improved. After some months I played again with my friend and I won. That was the last game he played against me. Moral? Not sure. I like to win sometimes, but I don't mind losing most times if that teachs me something. Playing against someone much better than you sharpens your perception, reactions, ever…

The part where your friend stopped playing you -- that's something that I just don't understand, on a fundamental level.

My brother-in-law talked about chess for years, I finally agreed to play him, and won both games. He's never brought it up again. It makes no sense to me.

Growing up, I was the youngest, so I generally lost at whatever games we played, and it never made me want to stop playing. When my significantly older brother came back home and stayed with us for awhile, we played chess regularly, and I lost a _lot_. But I kept playing, and when I finally got to the point where I won one out of three, it felt really good.

How much fun would I have missed out on if I hadn't kept playing?

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#145

Post by dragontamer »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #14
dragontamer wrote: post #4

Playing with people who are better than you is easy. Just accept they're better than you and keep losing. Decide if you are comfortable with your current skill level or not. If you want to get better, train up. If you are happy with your skill level, then keep losing. That's fine, and I think its healthy to decide to place limits on your skill. Skill is an infinite treadmill: you can continuously get better at pretty…

> If you want to get better, train up. This doesn't mesh with why lots of people play things. It's play. It might just be a nice way to pass the time. I would rather play basketball against someone my level than Steph Curry playing all out. I'm not playing to win or even to get better (getting better is fun, but isn't the point). I just want to have fun. For many kinds of play, if you have to train for it, you may as…

> This doesn't mesh with why lots of people play things. It's play. It might just be a nice way to pass the time.

If training isn't fun, then don't train up. Instead, learn to be satisfied with losing.

Which is fine: I'm satisfied when I play a decent game (but lose) against stronger players. I probably was going to lose anyway.

Being satisfied with your skill level, and learning to enjoy a game without necessarily improving at it, is important. For most of us, playing games is just a hobby. Our professions... the skill we ACTUALLY practice to get good at throughout our lives... takes priority over our hobbies.

Part of what makes a hobby a hobby... is the decision to remain weaker than professionals at that skill. I'll never become as good of a Harmonica Player as Magic Dick (who played "Wammer Jammer": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0q2Vy3fx2I). But that's fine, because Magic Dick is a professional Harmonica Player.

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#146

Post by kleer001 »

Seems out of the scope of the article which was mostly about constructed board games, but I would have loved a mention of the most fundamental and ancient form of game... wrestling, aka rough housing or rough and tumble play.

https://cognitioneducation.me/2013/07/25/a-time-and-a-place-...

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#147

Post by dragontamer »

tluyben2 wrote: post #61
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to get better, train up. This doesn't mesh with why lots of people play things. It's play. It might just be a nice way to pass the time. I would rather play basketball against someone my level than Steph Curry playing all out. I'm not playing to win or even to get better (getting better is fun, but isn't the point). I just want to have fun. For many kinds of play, if you have to train for it, you may as…

And I don't find some games fun anymore if you or anyone around the table goes in for the kill; simple example that most people will know; monopoly. There are strategies to almost surely win but it makes the game boring and even annoying for everyone involved. So we usually added rules to prevent those strategies. If someone 'is better at that' it means he/she is a boring/non-fun player and no-one will play anymore a…

> And I don't find some games fun anymore if you or anyone around the table goes in for the kill; simple example that most people will know; monopoly.

Monopoly is a bad game though. Play Acquire instead.

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#148

Post by bitL »

Juliate wrote: post #43
bitL wrote: post #40

"With ‘fairness’ built in, everyone has an equal chance of winning without compromising their playing style." This must be a joke, right? What's the point of playing games? To feel good about oneself?!

The point of playing is ... playing. :) It's the journey. Not the win or loss.

So if I use a random number generator as an "advisor" for my part, am I guaranteed to win regardless? Like a social club where everybody gets to win and with it their own medal and certificate? In other words, playing = socializing, performance, tricks, effort being meaningless?

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#149

Post by dragontamer »

mantap wrote: post #55
danielbarla wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only futile if your main / only goal is to win. I tend to view playing much stronger opponents as an opportunity to learn (especially if they are taking the time to explain things). In that sense, it's a massive "win". Alternatively, you can always redefine a "win", e.g. as getting a draw out of a 400 ELO higher opponent. It's realistic and shows that you are progressing in a positive direction.

If your intention is to improve you are probably better off spectating than playing. Playing against stronger players of any game is an interesting experience but observing stronger players is more educational since you can do so from an emotionally detached position and you don't have to dedicate the majority of your concentration to playing your side of the game.

> but observing stronger players is more educational

I disagree strongly on that. If stronger players are avoiding complicated pins / forks / checkmates, the weaker player will NEVER experience these positions.

It is far, far, far more educational to play against a stronger player and learn the tricks of the trade. Getting pinned by an expert is a lesson. Getting a "Queen Trap" is a lesson. A Fork is a lesson. Etc. etc.

Watching players stronger than you avoid all those positions is completely, and utterly non-helpful. You need to get those mistakes "beaten out of you" so to speak, if you ever wish to get better at Chess.

--------

Now, observing chess can be helpful with computer-analysis. After downloading the pgn file of a high-level game, play through it yourself vs Stockfish (PC vs SCID is decent freeware to run the Stockfish engine with), and try to discover the traps that the high-level players innately avoided.

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#150

Post by rhlsthrm »

V-2 wrote: post #79
jstummbillig wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My inability to defeat the greatest players of a subject does NOT make the game less appealing Yes, it does. To them. Anyone who is driven to get better at a game will be bored with playing with or against clearly worse players very quickly.

It depends on the game. Eg. I'm fairly advanced in Brazilian jiu-jitsu (~10 years of practice, brown belt). The typical approach that I also follow is that when I want to practice some technique I'm not well familiar with, I try it on white belts first, iron the obvious wrinkles out, and then I keep on going up the skill ladder until I'm able to execute it on my equals. As I practice it against stronger and stronger…

I feel like BJJ is pretty unique in this regard. It's the only activity I've come across where it's still fun to go 100% against a complete newbie.
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