How to play with people who are better than you • Hacker News Board

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#61

Post by tluyben2 » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #14

dragontamer wrote: post #4

Playing with people who are better than you is easy. Just accept they're better than you and keep losing. Decide if you are comfortable with your current skill level or not. If you want to get better, train up. If you are happy with your skill level, then keep losing. That's fine, and I think its healthy to decide to place limits on your skill. Skill is an infinite treadmill: you can continuously get better at pretty…

> If you want to get better, train up. This doesn't mesh with why lots of people play things. It's play. It might just be a nice way to pass the time. I would rather play basketball against someone my level than Steph Curry playing all out. I'm not playing to win or even to get better (getting better is fun, but isn't the point). I just want to have fun. For many kinds of play, if you have to train for it, you may as…

And I don't find some games fun anymore if you or anyone around the table goes in for the kill; simple example that most people will know; monopoly. There are strategies to almost surely win but it makes the game boring and even annoying for everyone involved. So we usually added rules to prevent those strategies. If someone 'is better at that' it means he/she is a boring/non-fun player and no-one will play anymore after 1-2 games. In general; there are a lot of games really not fun at all for people who always want to win no matter what.

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#62

Post by mjfl » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 10:36 AM UTC

cehrlich wrote: post #52

mjfl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must be a different neurotype from you people. If I saw someone get upset, lack enjoyment out of playing basketball with, and losing to Steph Curry, I would think that person is a loser. To each their own.

I would love to lose a game of basketball against Steph Curry, would certainly be a fun experience. But it would get old fast as he would certainly crush me every time. If my goal is to get better at basketball, playing against Steph Curry is not useful. Learning happens most efficiently when the challenge is somewhat above your current skill level, but not enormously so. If someone just recently started going to the…

No but I'd assume they were a loser if they left the gym if someone walked in that could lift it.

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#63

Post by tluyben2 » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #31

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to get better, train up. This doesn't mesh with why lots of people play things. It's play. It might just be a nice way to pass the time. I would rather play basketball against someone my level than Steph Curry playing all out. I'm not playing to win or even to get better (getting better is fun, but isn't the point). I just want to have fun. For many kinds of play, if you have to train for it, you may as…

If you're just playing to pass the time, why does it matter if you lose to Steph Curry or not?

If someone is off the scale better at something, playing becomes tedious and boring. That's not really fun to pass the time (or as a sport; when I go to kickboxing, I don't really expect the guy in our gym who won the EU championships a few times to KO me all day long like if he is competing to an equal). The reverse is true as well; unless teaching, why do they want to play with you. Boring for them too (unless they have gigantic ego's and get kicks of winning from anyone).

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#64

Post by sabas123 » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

jstummbillig wrote: post #24

dragontamer wrote: post #4

Playing with people who are better than you is easy. Just accept they're better than you and keep losing. Decide if you are comfortable with your current skill level or not. If you want to get better, train up. If you are happy with your skill level, then keep losing. That's fine, and I think its healthy to decide to place limits on your skill. Skill is an infinite treadmill: you can continuously get better at pretty…

> My inability to defeat the greatest players of a subject does NOT make the game less appealing Yes, it does. To them. Anyone who is driven to get better at a game will be bored with playing with or against clearly worse players very quickly.

Not necessarily, Day[9] (one of the best US starcraft 1 players) had a great podcast where he explained why playing against worse players can still be massively helpful.

http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/intrigue/Day90006PlayAgainst...

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#65

Post by Kbelicius » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 10:38 AM UTC

azangru wrote: post #54

circlefavshape wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if you lose - what matters is that you feel like you have some involvement in the game. Good games are like conversations - you can enjoy a conversation with someone who's way more knowledgeable/smarter than you, but not one where you don't get a word in at all

> but not one where you don't get a word in at all So no podcasts/radio-or-tv shows then?

Yes, those are a no go if you want to make conversation.

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#66

Post by heisenbit » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 10:58 AM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #4

Playing with people who are better than you is easy. Just accept they're better than you and keep losing. Decide if you are comfortable with your current skill level or not. If you want to get better, train up. If you are happy with your skill level, then keep losing. That's fine, and I think its healthy to decide to place limits on your skill. Skill is an infinite treadmill: you can continuously get better at pretty…

> Playing with people who are better than you is easy. Just accept they're better than you and keep losing.

And what motivates the better player to be engaged?

We all know that learning and growth happens right at the edge. When one is stretching and that stretch makes a difference. Too far it is frustrating. No stretch no gain. I'm surprised Go was not mentioned so far since it is customary there to balance the strength of the players by giving a few stones advantage to the weaker balancing the play in a manner that both sides are challenged.

But this is Hacker News. So does this apply to the way we work? How are the challenges we face distributed in the team?

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#67

Post by fredoliveira » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 11:04 AM UTC

ggm wrote: post #20

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you decide not to care about starting at the same level. That’s usually an easy fix. The strategy game Go, for example, gives weaker players extra stones on the board to start, allowing both players to try their hardest and feel like they have a chance of winning.

Before posting I tried word search in my tablet browser and missed it. I guess in the game of criticism I just.. lost.

But why would you even try going for criticism of an article before even reading it?

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#68

Post by lapnitnelav » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 11:07 AM UTC

narag wrote: post #57

onion2k wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the sound of it your intent was to win eventually. You could imagine winning, and with some effort you did win. I think that's subtly different to playing against people who you will never beat regardless of how much effort you put in. dragontamer's example of Magnus Carlsen is a good one - he was in the top 1000 players in the world when he was 12, and become World Champion at 22. He's intuitively good at chess.…

By the sound of it your intent was to win eventually. Eventually we all die. It's fun to play anyway. In a less philosophical mood: standing against an overwhelming force can be exhilarating. I've felt something like that windsurfing in strong wind conditions. Down to the specific question, losing always against someone you can't defeat is very good training for winning over others.

I play a fair amount of a regular scale FPS (12v12 max) and it happens fairly regularly that I end up being the last one alive in my team and have to face off multiple opponents.

I don't always succeed but the pure thrill of trying to survive what is usually a virtual death sentence is something really powerful and when successful so exhilarating.

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#69

Post by Kbelicius » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 11:08 AM UTC

michaelscott wrote: post #8

igor47 wrote: post #2

the author is focused on finite games, which are games that you play to win. but it's interesting to think about applying the same logic to infinite games, where the goal is to keep playing forever. For instance, capitalism is a game that most players assume we'll just keep playing. How do you deal with some players having an advantage? Currently, the advantage only compounds (literally, ie compound interest). What i…

To continue the game theory tilt, the problem with making the game harder as the player advantage increases is that it disincentivises the player from seeking advantage at all. In the theoretical game of "capitalism" this sounds like a good idea, but in the real world a government that imposes these kinds of game restrictions through something like taxes only forces the advantaged players to pull out of the "game" co…

> but in the real world a government that imposes these kinds of game restrictions through something like taxes only forces the advantaged players to pull out of the "game" completely (a nett negative for those reliant on their advantage long term) and move their advantage to another "game".

This would be true only if profits are the only motivation for humans to do anything... and that is not true.

Also, currently, there is no other "game".

Re: How to play with people who are better than you

#70

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 11:13 AM UTC

michaelscott wrote: post #8

igor47 wrote: post #2

the author is focused on finite games, which are games that you play to win. but it's interesting to think about applying the same logic to infinite games, where the goal is to keep playing forever. For instance, capitalism is a game that most players assume we'll just keep playing. How do you deal with some players having an advantage? Currently, the advantage only compounds (literally, ie compound interest). What i…

To continue the game theory tilt, the problem with making the game harder as the player advantage increases is that it disincentivises the player from seeking advantage at all. In the theoretical game of "capitalism" this sounds like a good idea, but in the real world a government that imposes these kinds of game restrictions through something like taxes only forces the advantaged players to pull out of the "game" co…

> but in the real world a government that imposes these kinds of game restrictions through something like taxes only forces the advantaged players to pull out of the "game" completely

Given that there is plenty of evidence that relative deprivation is a major source of disutility, getting them to exclude themselves from the social milieu in which other people exist would be a net win, though less than that of them staying and complying. But, objectivist fantasy novels aside, there's not a lot of evidence that that's a significant effect in the real world.

The people that are actually most successful in modern society understand the role society plays in the utility they derive from success a lot better than some of the wannabes that imagine how they would deal with similar success.