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We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#431
post #413

In the article they talk about more women in tech in India than in US. India is a highly sexist society having a male child is preferred over having a female child. Still more females are in CS than in a more egalitarian society like US. I think it is because there are less economic choices in India. So if you are going to college in India you will choose a subject that makes more economic sense. Even if that means s…

It is a curious phenomenon.

https://womenintheworld.com/2018/02/27/study-finds-women-in-...

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#432

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

>> If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% Perhaps employers can expand the search to those with degrees in statistics, mathematics, physics, econometrics? What I've seen time and time again is that when people dont want to hire, they come up with excuse after excuse. When they really want to hire [a VP's brother-in-low, or whatever], ev…

Is the pipeline in other degrees any better? And more importantly, why is it even a suggestions to look for other degrees when searching for candiate just to fill out diversity quota?

Just to be clear, I am not saying there is anything wrong with looking for candidates from those areas, companies should, and already did source candidates from more than CS degrees. But the company should do that because those candidates were qualified, not because they have to hire to sastify a demographic composition requirements for the company

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be reading into what I wrote a bit. This is just how I feel...not how I WANT to feel. Obviously, these are biases and anxieties that exist in my own mixed-race low-income immigrant brain that i wish weren't there. As another latino founder told me..."walk into a VC pitch meeting with the confidence of a tall white man." Like I don't hate caucasians but sometimes can't help but notice these differenc…

Not being a straight cis white male etc is now a MASSIVE superpower for fundraising and company building. I am happy to help anyone in this bucket for their pitching process if they do not already see that.

Lesson on HN: This comment got a whole bunch of upvotes, and a few hours later, super downvoted. I think we've learned something unfortunate about what the global community here wants to see happen :(

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could showcase where women are born with DNA that leads them away from software related jobs, I would be very interested. Otherwise, "interested" is incredibly affected by environment and biases, which can be fixed, and should be.

We do know that more egalitarian countries lead to significantly pronounced differences in choices between male and female. That directly suggest that males and females biologically like different things.

This is known as the Gender-equality paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#435
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies used to train internally Please no. Japan is that way. Japan pays programmers $20k to start, no better than working fast food. Their salaries go up to $60k at the top end at most big Japanese companies and they have the attitude that anyone over 35 is too old to code. I feel the fact they hire grads with zero experience is one of the reasons. Why pay someone $$$ if they can't actually do the job yet? Conv…

How can you say it would never work in the west when it did for many years? It certainly wasn't the workers who stopped it working. I personally value stability and would prefer to stay in one place if it were more feasible. Training can be at all career stages, not just the beginning. Japan, yeah, I don't want that. It's a unique beast with a lot of dysfunctions, both anecdotally from friends and all the stories onl…

There was a piece on PBS Newshour recently about older workers (largely skilled blue collar) staying on longer with verious incentive because employers couldn't find skilled replacements.

What stuck me as ridiculous was some owner who said something about having invested 30 years in these guys. He hadn't invested shit as far as I could see. He has a handfull of employees that had invested in their own skills. If he had invested in his employees he have a new generation ready or almost ready to step up as one retired.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#436
"If you say the words “there’s a pipeline problem” to explain why we’ve failed to make meaningful progress toward gender parity in software engineering, you probably won’t make many friends (or many hires)."

Am I the only one who thought this was some kind of double entendre at first?

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#437
post #369
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to build on this- among younger age groups- women are more likely to be college graduates than men. Women willingly choose different education paths because of different interests.

That's not true. Harvey Mudd made changes to their CS program to remove bias and now more than half of its computer science majors are women. There is some very insidious bias in the pipeline that isn't explained away with "but different interests". https://qz.com/730290/harvey-mudd-college-took-on-gender-bia...

A bit of "wait a minute, something else is going on here" comes with the mention that Physics has a even higher % women, yet there's no mention of curriculum changes for that major. This wouldn't happen to be a very small school with a very low acceptance rate, would it?

It is: less than 900 students and less than 13%. They can have whatever gender ratio they want, more or less, with essentially no effort. I'm not sure they have cleverly solved "insidious bias", more than they are simply selecting for the gender ratio they want as they send out acceptance letters. It would be nice if a much larger school with a much higher acceptance rate adopted identical curriculum, so we could have real data on the idea. But until that happens I would be somewhat cautious about declaring success here.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#438
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have a goal of 50% female developers? Can we see some citations for that? Most companies I've worked at claimed to be trying for 20%, and they were failing abysmally at it.

I've heard from a Googler that yes, they want the workforce to match the outside world. With that in mind read https://diversity.google/annual-report/#!#_what-would-it-tak... and "That’s why in 2019 we challenge ourselves and others to think differently so that we widen pathways to tech. Only then will we reflect our consumer base, and truly elevate our ability to build products for everyone." So Google wants to refl…

> So Google wants to reflect the consumer base

Which includes a good portion of extremists of all kinds, illiterates, drug dealers, etc. And of course, half of it is made of people with below average IQ.

You want your company to employ the people that are best at the job, not a cross-section of the population along some randomly chosen axis.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#439
post #27

I know it is not politically correct to say it, but I remain unconvinced that gender parity is a desirable goal. Particularly given the current state of research into differences in gender averages. Here is a real example. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_visualization_ability#... men have about a one standard deviation advantage in spacial reasoning over women. Assuming that both distributions are normal wi…

I wrote a few direct responses, but they all felt patronizing. Apologies for the length, but I'm hoping to avoid that by showing my math, as it were:

About 7 years ago, I started to wonder about a cluster of concepts that I've yet to successfully explain to anyone without getting a confused look...

Roughly, it's a curiosity about what (if anything) is in the joints and gaps and shadows around the more salient features of our existence. An example is like: how (if at all) does having systems for getting rid of unpleasant things (human waste, trash, unwanted products, corpses, people who are disabled/invalid/elderly, criminals...) shape our thinking and understanding?

Privately, I think about this as unraveling: pulling on loose threads anywhere I catch myself or others taking something for granted.

A consequence of picking around in these gaps and cracks is that I've grown frustrated with most of the discourse, research, and subsequent popular-press reporting that has any overlap with a human/social system. The problem is pretty ubiquitous. The kindest diagnosis I can give is that there may be a big hole in our language(s)/grammar.

So, the methodology of the 2003 study (https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.3758%2FBF03196134.p...) cited first in the paragraph you link at Wikipedia documents its sample: "The participants were 60 men and 60 women who were each paid the equivalent of $4.50 U.S. Between 20 and 30 years of age (mean age, 22.2 years), all were right-handed students enrolled in either undergraduate or graduate programs (in social science, French, or administration) at the Université de Montréal."

Likewise, here's the first sentence of the discussion: "The present results revealed relatively high accuracy levels overall. Although men did not supply significantly more correct answers than did women across the three conditions, they needed, on average, less time to carry out the mental rotation of the structures illustrated in Vandenberg and Kuse’s (1978) items."

I want to draw a few threads out of this:

1. A more honest summary of the research is something like: "60 male and 60 female college students at a single university in Montreal, between the ages of 20 and 30, when studied in the early 2000s, representing 3 majors, selected by an unspecified strategy which involved compensation of $4.50 and then broken into 3 subgroups of 20 and given a similar mental rotation task in a different format, performed the mental rotations with similarly high levels of accuracy, though the selected male students groups did so around 33% faster." This is an improvement, but it still doesn't well-reflect how low our confidence still is that it measured anything accurate (let alone valid) about statistically indistinguishable groups ~now, let alone our roughly total inability to answer whether this relationship is fixed and durable across meaningful timescales.

2. There are reasonable alternatives to the headline treatment of the result. Since there was no statistically significant difference in the accuracy of their results--only the response time--the narrative about men's superior performance this task merits scrutiny. Is the difference explained by differences in confidence? Cautiousness? Familiarity with similar tasks? The study makes a halfhearted attempt to address cautiousness by asking for a self-report on whether they double-checked their answers, and on how difficult they thought the task was. Women consistently rated the problems as more difficult (but answered as accurately). Why did they rate it as more difficult?

3. The study discusses two main reported rotation strategies in the literature--holistic and analytic--and that the holistic strategies tend to be faster than the analytic strategies. It also notes that "The literature thus suggests that, in the standard visual presentation condition, the holistic strategies preferred by men are more efficient than the analytic strategies preferred by women." I haven't read the whole study, but I don't see any attempt to tease out to what extent response time differences persist or disappear when controlling for strategy. I see no discussion of or attempt to investigate why men and women are using different strategies. But, the fact that the primary difference is response time, and a response-time difference is noted between strategies, and strategy differences are noted between the genders, and how cultural/experiential and non-intrinsic strategy selection appears as a variable, I'm a bit slack-jawed that this isn't the headline result.

4. I see no examination or breakdown of demographics/activities that might matter. Keep in mind that while they covered 120 students in total, each individual test group is 20 students with no discussion of how they were selected. These groups are small enough to be vulnerable to weird samples even if they did draw statistically random samples. How many of these students played sports? Which one? How recently? At what level? What about adjacent recreational activities they might not consider a sport, such as shooting, skating, skateboarding, bowling, rock-climbing, kayaking, mountain-biking, yoga, running, etc. How many practice some sort of art or craft? Do they play video games? Pilot any sort of vehicle? Does controlling for any of these affect the observed gender difference?

Moving beyond the study itself:

5. If the response-time difference is durable and intrinsic, it's not obvious what if any bearing a response-time difference the measured task has on how well men and women can perform an engineering job. They might not even be meaningfully correlated. Is an engineer's performance strongly bottlenecked by how quickly they rotate objects, or is this delta largely leveled in practice by other factors (e.g., my typing speed is rarely the thing that limits how much code I write in a day).

6. Even if such a speed difference does have a bearing on how well men and women perform an engineering job, there's no basis for assuming the magnitude of the speed performance difference would equal the magnitude of the job performance difference (which could be larger, smaller).

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#440
post #106
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone who didn't read the linked article (it's short), it suggests that a key element is careful design of intro courses. Students with computer science experience get a more advanced course that is explicitly designed not to make them more competitive in second-year courses (instead, it starts on material that will re-appear in third-year courses). Students with no computer science experience get their own intr…

It's an interesting insight. When applying to colleges I never considered applying for CS as I (female) had no programming experience whatsoever, and seemed to be surrounded by people (male) who'd been working on computers for years, ( I'll leave speculation on that for another day ) It was only because they forced EE majors to take programming courses that I ended up in the field. I wrote my first "hello world" as a…

hmm.

I guess I'm in a small minority, but I had never written a line of code in my life before my CS100 class.

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