We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring • Hacker News Board

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#391

Post by achenatx » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:51 AM UTC

gen220 wrote: post #188

TeMPOraL wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for elaborating. What you wrote resonates very strongly, it's essentially the way it's been in every job I worked on. Hell, I'm guilty of it myself - once I have my own fiefdom in the codebase, I feel terrified of letting someone else work in it. In my mind, I have the vision of them struggling unproductively because they lack the knowledge about all the tiny little idiosyncrasies, of various design decisio…

I feel like a step towards a solution to this problem (which I likewise observe), is to document these idiosyncrasies in the code . My rule of thumb is that when I write or read weird code that's necessarily weird (to avoid idiosyncrasies in downstream/upstream systems), I try to add a very concise clarifying comment that acknowledges the code as weird, and points in the direction of both the problem we're avoiding a…

I do this and I also initial and date the comment so people have some idea where in the timeline it was introduced and who to talk to about it.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#392

Post by kelnos » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:52 AM UTC

meristem wrote: post #30

Underneath all this: although companies need talent, interviews are adversarial and not structured to create a supportive environment so candidates are at their best. Quite often the interview setup is to see how the candidate performs at their worst-- stressed, time pressured, on the spot, performing for fragments of time to a number of people while in what (feels|is) an asymmetrical power relationship.

The best interviews I've participated in (on either side of the table) have been when it's been more of a conversation, not an explicit evaluation. Yes, there's a power imbalance, and I'm not sure there's a way to fix that, but you can counteract it by treating interviews as a two-way street.

Interviewers don't need to be adversarial to determine if a candidate is going to be good for the role. Interviewees shouldn't be passive, and should be using the time to determine if the company is even a good fit for them.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#393

Post by mffnbs » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:52 AM UTC

nl wrote: post #203

supernova87a wrote: post #187

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. I'm not sure if you realize this, but change always seems impossible until it happens. 10 years ago it seemed completely impossible that Facebook would have 1B users, let alone the ~3B it has now. The same 10 years ago it seemed impossible to that gay peopl…

It’s ridiculous you were down voted for this. These people don’t want to change their behavior or admit there’s bias. They would rather remain ignorant and pretend that it’s a problem caused by someone else rather than reflect on what might not be working.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#394

Post by int_19h » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:54 AM UTC

ben_jones wrote: post #323

hellisothers wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of the article is that restricting your hiring pool to only CS graduates is a bad pattern and you should consider other qualities instead so saying only 18% of CS graduates are female misses the point. Having no CS degree myself and excelling in a top 10 company I agree with this sentiment, especially seeing the epidemic of “over leveling” the small pool of CS graduates occurring. I’d rather work with…

I’m a drop out too and have made my way to manager where I find myself training juniors many of which also do not have degrees. Unfortunately it is night and day between the ones who do have degrees and those that don’t. At this point I am now strongly recommending cs degrees to anyone seeking a career in programming because the theories do come up in any serious work, particularly full stack engineers who must have…

In my experience as somebody without a degree and employed for >15 years now, you don't need a degree to get enough understanding of type theory and statistics, even for things at senior level. It will obviously depend on the specific project, but self-learning is very much a viable option in this industry. Conversely, I've seen many candidates with a CS degree who couldn't handle trivial coding challenges (and I mean trivial, not puzzles).

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#395

Post by jki275 » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:55 AM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #246

uwuhn wrote: post #222

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I don't have a problem with most of my coworkers (male and female) being Asian. In fact, I prefer it. I'm not Asian, but the majority of my friends, classmates, and coworkers throughout my life have been, and that continues even now during my career in tech. Whenever I see anything related to affirmative action being discussed nowadays, I think that it's only a matter of…

> I think that it's only a matter of time until Asian women are treated the same way as Asian men. Once you've managed to close the gender gap in engineering, you have a new problem to deal with -- a lack of diversity among women engineers in regards to race and socio-economic class. The blanket catch-all term "Asian" is not doing this conversation any favors. You assert a monoculture, but Asia is a huge region with…

It's accurate so far as the discrimination is concerned. Most of those doing the discrimination don't even know or understand that "Asia" is a big place with a lot of different cultures.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#396

Post by hnick » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:57 AM UTC

greggman2 wrote: post #381

hnick wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you, but such smart and resourceful companies could do something about it. They are not powerless. Companies used to train internally - watch an older TV show (or even something like Better Call Saul) and see how many characters "worked their way up from the mail room". The death of company loyalty goes both ways but I'm sure it can be mended with some effort. Where I work one of the better pro…

> Companies used to train internally Please no. Japan is that way. Japan pays programmers $20k to start, no better than working fast food. Their salaries go up to $60k at the top end at most big Japanese companies and they have the attitude that anyone over 35 is too old to code. I feel the fact they hire grads with zero experience is one of the reasons. Why pay someone $$$ if they can't actually do the job yet? Conv…

How can you say it would never work in the west when it did for many years? It certainly wasn't the workers who stopped it working.

I personally value stability and would prefer to stay in one place if it were more feasible. Training can be at all career stages, not just the beginning.

Japan, yeah, I don't want that. It's a unique beast with a lot of dysfunctions, both anecdotally from friends and all the stories online. I'd say the things you listed are outcomes from lingering cultural problems rather than causes.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#397

Post by Draiken » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:57 AM UTC

sukilot wrote: post #357

AdrianB1 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that women may prefer to heal than to code and when they need to choose a career they choose healing, so this is the real explanation why most doctors in my country are women and most people in IT are men?

What are lawyers healing? Did women suddenly discover an interest in healing in the past 50 years?

They learned that being a lawyer earns you prestige and lots of money.

Compare that to computer science and being viewed as a geek, nerd, loner. Even though it's less bad at this day and age, it's not even comparable to medicine and law.

Equality of opportunity does not generate equality of outcome as soffits revealed on Scandinavia. And it shouldn't.

People are individuals and they should not need to conform to a flawed notion that everything should be 50/50

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#398

Post by int_19h » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:57 AM UTC

zanny wrote: post #274

uwuhn wrote: post #222

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I don't have a problem with most of my coworkers (male and female) being Asian. In fact, I prefer it. I'm not Asian, but the majority of my friends, classmates, and coworkers throughout my life have been, and that continues even now during my career in tech. Whenever I see anything related to affirmative action being discussed nowadays, I think that it's only a matter of…

> most companies, who are expending great effort on balancing the gender ratio while treating men of color as second-class URMs At least in the US actually admitting to having gender biased hiring would have to violate a half dozen anti-discrimination labor protection laws, no? Universities are doing affirmative action because there is no legislation mandating they not be sexist in their enrollment whereas corporatio…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_Univ._of_Cal._v... established that affirmative action per se is legal in US under the Constitution and the federal law. What's illegal is hard quotas and other arrangements where the decision is made solely on the basis of e.g. race or gender - but it can be one of several deciding factors.

On state level, it depends on the state. Some have laws or constitutional amendments that prohibit affirmative action.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#399

Post by d3ad1ysp0rk » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 1:58 AM UTC

jonfw wrote: post #362

AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Billions are being spent on housing in the bay area by these ultra rich companies even though it is arguably not at all their responsibility. Except it is, because of course it is. Who is responsible for fixing the gender imbalance in tech, if not the leaders in tech? (Of course the housing thing may just be a cynical calculation that it’s cheaper than the toxic public relations of doing nothing. But maybe that shoul…

> fixing the gender imbalance An imbalance doesn't inherently need to be fixed. If the imbalance is because women are simply less interested- an imbalance is desirable. Equality in opportunity will not neccessarily lead to equality in outcome. Any argument on this topic that is rooted in outcomes can be immediately dismissed. Attempt to measure the actual source of the problem- which is opportunity.

If you could showcase where women are born with DNA that leads them away from software related jobs, I would be very interested. Otherwise, "interested" is incredibly affected by environment and biases, which can be fixed, and should be.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#400

Post by danans » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 2:00 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #212

fzeroracer wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Back in the 1960s there was discrimination and no women were in engineering. This was a terrible waste of talent. But by the late 1980s, women were 20% of engineering students. Decades of hand-wringing later, women are still about 20% of engineering students. Based on spacial reasoning ability, perhaps women SHOULD be about 20% of engineering students. I just wanted to point out that this is objectively wrong for o…

I said engineering, and I meant engineering. Not computer science. See https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/table-of-the-day-bachelors-de... to verify that in 2016, just under 21% of engineering degrees were given to women. The figures for the mid 1980s were almost the same. But if you can find figures, in the mid-1960s, engineering degrees were almost exclusively given to men. The ratios have been fairly constant in recen…

> For example recursion, pointers, closures, and class hierarchies. > My suspicion is that one or more of these concepts is more of a barrier for women than men.

Seems like quite a stretch, given that those are all concepts created by mathematics, which women have long excelled in - after all, women were the original "computers" before we had machines to automate calculations.

Add to that that the hard sciences like chemistry are full of women, and many of the concepts they involve dwarf the complexity of concepts like classes and pointers.

What changed for women between the time of early programming languages and C++/Java wasn't pointers and classes, but rather the culture of tech itself moved from academia to business, and big business had a heavy male bias.