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We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#301

Post by drdeca »

baddox wrote: post #228
drdeca wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that the people who are receiving a biased mix should introduce an opposite bias to counteract it before sending on to the next step, or not? Possibly I am misunderstanding what a "pipeline problem" refers to. Wow, I'm experiencing some deja vu. I feel like I already (like, a year or more ago) sent this comment and got a reply, but I don't remember what the reply was.…

My point is that, if there is in fact a pipeline problem, that probably does not constitute a shift in responsibility away from the hiring company. Saying "you cannot expect to make things better than they are at the input of your pipe segment" is explicitly attempting to shift responsibility away from the hiring company. I simply disagree. I think a company is still largely responsible for the outcomes of its hiring…

Are you saying:

1) the input is not actually biased

2) the company is responsible for making the output less biased than the input (or produce an unbiased output from a biased input)

3) the company is responsible for making sure that they don’t cause the output to be more biased than the input, (but you are not saying that it is responsible for more than that)

3’) The same as 3, except that the amount of bias in the input, while nonzero, is small and relatively unimportant

4) The company is responsible for preventing the bias in the input

5) I (drdeca) missed an option; none of the above (if so, please specify the option I missed, which can be the case while none of the above are)

My leanings are that either (2) or (3) (or 3’, but that is just a subtype of 3) (or 2’, but again that is just a subtype if 2) is the case.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#302

Post by dang »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #211
supernova87a wrote: post #187

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

Freshman year CS: 30-40% girls Senior year CS: 1-5% girls Pepehands SquadW Tfw your lived experience won't stop redpilling you D:

Please don't do this here.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#303

Post by hellisothers »

supernova87a wrote: post #187

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

The whole point of the article is that restricting your hiring pool to only CS graduates is a bad pattern and you should consider other qualities instead so saying only 18% of CS graduates are female misses the point.

Having no CS degree myself and excelling in a top 10 company I agree with this sentiment, especially seeing the epidemic of “over leveling” the small pool of CS graduates occurring. I’d rather work with correctly leveled non-CS graduates than over-leveled CS graduates

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#304

Post by [deleted] »

btilly wrote: post #173
asdff wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are a HS senior with good grades, test scores, and a decent essay. That's all the engineering school expects for admission. There is no explicit test for spacial reasoning ability, other than your ability to compete at your specific high school, your ability to take the SAT, and your ability to write a boilerplate 5 paragraph essay (probably strongly dependent on whether you use a writing coach or test prep servi…

First, the rat experiment that you want has actually been done. In rats, testosterone improves spatial reasoning. See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3081396/ for verification. Secondly an inability at spatial reasoning definitely is going to make engineering courses much, much harder. So your claim that there is no effect on getting to entry level engineer is overstating your case by a lot. That said, t…

[deleted]

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#305

Post by barry-cotter »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #31
stormbrew wrote: post #16

I don't think the point of criticizing "it's a pipeline problem" is that there isn't a pipeline problem, but that it's an easy out to avoid taking action at whatever stage of the 'pipeline' you happen to be working at. If, as an manager at a FAANG, you say "it's a pipeline problem" you're probably saying that there aren't enough candidates because not enough women graduate from ST programs. If you're a program develo…

And the point of criticizing the criticism of "it's a pipeline problem" is that, wherever you try to improve the pipeline, you cannot expect to make things better than they are at the input of your pipe segment. Working near the end of the pipe, you'll quickly hit diminishing returns. If the input at your segment is biased 4:1, then you can't improve past it. Sure, if your output is 8:1 then it's bad, but you won't g…

The STEM gap is lower in countries with more discrimination against women.

> Paradoxically, the sex differences in the magnitude of relative academic strengths and pursuit of STEM degrees rose with increases in national gender equality. The gap between boys’ science achievement and girls’ reading achievement relative to their mean academic performance was near universal. These sex differences in academic strengths and attitudes toward science correlated with the STEM graduation gap. A mediation analysis suggested that life-quality pressures in less gender-equal countries promote girls’ and women’s engagement with STEM subjects.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797617741719

Male over representation in STEM fields is probably due to their other options being poorer compared to women. Men generally have high math scores only while women with high math scores also have high reading scores.

> What they find is that comparative advantage (math ability relative to reading ability) explains math intentions better than actual math or reading ability. Comparative advantage is also a better predictor of math intentions than perceptions of math ability (women do perceive lower math ability relative to true ability than do men but the effect is less important than comparative advantage). In another data set the authors show that math intentions predict math education.

> Thus, accumulating evidence shows that over-representation of males in STEM fields is perhaps better framed as under-representation of males in reading fields and the latter is driven by relatively low reading achievement among males.

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/09/gi...

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#306

Post by jimbokun »

sbilstein wrote: post #2

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

> Even tho I grew up in the states and have been around white people my entire life...there is something about the way most caucasian Americans telegraph (or don't) feelings and communicate during a technical interview that put me totally on edge.

Anything specific that white interviewers could do differently to make you feel more at ease?

> It felt like the 'whitest' place ever and that everyone I spoke to was Linus Torvalds or James Damore or someone like that.

Well yeah, it's Google, so that's possible. Or maybe the company is large enough now that those kinds of high level individuals are diluted in their engineering pool? But it certainly had that reputation early on, that any random person interviewing you could be top in their field of expertise.

> The fact they didn't seem coached to be friendly added dramatically to that effect.

Hah, yeah, that's very much part of the culture. Having the best argument or data or working code matters. Not how politely you talk about it.

Which can certainly have its advantages, as long as everyone can let go of personally identifying with their idea once they are convinced of a better one. Then it can be a real positive.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#307

Post by Spooky23 »

pksdjfikkkkdsff wrote: post #259
hnick wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you, but such smart and resourceful companies could do something about it. They are not powerless. Companies used to train internally - watch an older TV show (or even something like Better Call Saul) and see how many characters "worked their way up from the mail room". The death of company loyalty goes both ways but I'm sure it can be mended with some effort. Where I work one of the better pro…

But why would you expect women to be more like to choose the approach of not graduating than men, though? Women have the same options to attend university as men. It seems more likely to me that the proportions of applicants without a degree are similar to the ones with degrees.

The focus on Computer Science is a female filter. I’ve rarely run into a colleague who claimed their education truly prepared them anyway.

You’d be better off being diverse in major. When I think of the smartest developers or IT people I know, one was a sociologist who learned programming as a labor department statistician, another had an MFA in Piano, and the other was in pharmacy school and dropped out after an injury.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#308

Post by daseiner1 »

pksdjfikkkkdsff wrote: post #255
inerte wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard from a Googler that yes, they want the workforce to match the outside world. With that in mind read https://diversity.google/annual-report/#!#_what-would-it-tak... and "That’s why in 2019 we challenge ourselves and others to think differently so that we widen pathways to tech. Only then will we reflect our consumer base, and truly elevate our ability to build products for everyone." So Google wants to refl…

When I hear statements like that, I always wonder if they try to hire 2% pedophiles, too. About 2% of people in the real world are supposed to be pedophiles, so if they want to reflect the real world, they should aim to hire them.

arguing in bad faith seems unnecessary when there's so much authentically wrong with their view

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#309

Post by rinchik »

dang wrote: post #124
rinchik wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried therapy? The fact you are not able to concentrate and perform when "'Zuck' white guy personality type" (whatever "Zuck" type means) is present, suggests a deeper personal issues and biases that you need to work on and resolve. If there are no personal issues then your comment, honestly, comes across as a bit racist.

Please keep internet psychiatric diagnosis off HN. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It's not psychiatry, it's psychology. Not even remotely I'm making an attempt to diagnose a psychiatric pathology as in no way I'm qualified to do that. You are giving me more credit than I actually deserve.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#310

Post by jimbokun »

sbilstein wrote: post #26
whb07 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm ready for the downvotes, but its worth it. I don't think it is generally good to look for divisions and more ways to separate from the whole. I don't know if that is because you're out somewhere in super woke SF or similar but you've already used terms like "LatinX" and "person of color" like someone who is already woke but maybe stop for a sec? Why don't you see yourself as a person who likes CS/tech and like…

I think you might be reading into what I wrote a bit. This is just how I feel...not how I WANT to feel. Obviously, these are biases and anxieties that exist in my own mixed-race low-income immigrant brain that i wish weren't there. As another latino founder told me..."walk into a VC pitch meeting with the confidence of a tall white man." Like I don't hate caucasians but sometimes can't help but notice these differenc…

> "walk into a VC pitch meeting with the confidence of a tall white man."

As a tall white man, I find it hilarious you think we are all confident.

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