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We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#51
When ~15% of CS graduates in a nation are women, it's going to be nary impossible for most companies to get too far beyond that.

If companies are hiring commensurate with that level, then that's good on them, it gets very impossible to much beyond that at scale without serious distortions.

'The Pipeline Problem' shouldn't be used as an all out excuse - but - it's a fundamental reality, like gravity.

It's shameful that someone would get sidelined for pointing out the blatantly obvious fact that 'the pipeline' is the problem.

Of course the pipeline is the problem, on what planet do the laws of gravity not apply?

There's always room for discussion, but avoiding the Elephant in the Room is smacks me as a lot of koolaid.

There's a few things that can done beyond that surely, particularly highlighting women and minorities in certain fields so as they don't lack encouragement/role models etc. - but no single company, not even Google is going to move any needle in a short period of time.

Finally, consider this: "The 'problem' may never be solved". There is evidence that as societies evolve, that gender disparity in fields doesn't necessarily increase or decrease. (The classical progressive thinking would have us believe that as we gain more rights etc. gender difference goes away, but this doesn't seem to be the case) We may have to try to create the most 'fair world we can' given that genderism may be an innate feature of human culture, at least for a very long time.

So a) the Pipeline is the primary thing b) we can help make sure people are encouraged and not systematically pushed out c) no one group will change anything d) there may always be differences between genders.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#52
Collective madness is largely reached at this point: the writer is complaining about a totally self-made issue. If I was trying to recruit men for nurse jobs, or people of color in Korea I would ran in a similar pipeline problem. The real issue is that "diversity" had became a metrics to reach for its own sake by companies instead of simply recruiting people that fit the job. Moreover, you can’t complain about so-called systemic sexism or racism when your policy is to not recruit white, asian or men that could fulfill the job precisely because of their race/sex.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#53

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

>As for bias in interviewing, I think it's really hard for non-POC to understand the more subtle parts of what sucks about interviewing. Even tho I grew up in the states and have been around white people my entire life...there is something about the way most caucasian Americans telegraph (or don't) feelings and communicate during a technical interview that put me totally on edge. I get anxious with the 'Zuck' white g…

In my experience, making an interview less biased is not about color of skin. It's about comfort and acknowledging how these anxieties creep up. At big companies I've worked at, we coached interviewers to do at least 5 minutes of small talk and resume review, to smile, to always leave time for questions at the end, to show some amount of enthusiasm for the work the interviewee is doing.

It's not about an interview format for a different race but interviews that take into account how being the odd person out may make it harder than it needs to be. In my ideal process, that helps everyone have a better interview.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#54

I'll preface this with the usual "my views are my own" but I do think that diversity in the workplace is a very deep and interesting problem and that we do a major disservice to it by creating ridiculous metrics. I think the most damning metric I see constantly touted is percentage gender; "We aim to have 50% women in the workplace" is a prime example of this. If this is by sexual assignment then even if the value is…

Uh, people like this are rounding errors in these kinds of statistics...

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#55
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of the best developers I know have no degree at all. I know one guy who did a boot camp 2-3 years ago and since then has self taught himself so much that he's one of the most knowledgeable people I've been around. He was recently told in an interview that he otherwise passed with flying colors that, "someone with a boot camp education couldn't be seriously considered." It's mind blowing to me that anyone in c…

You're going to find any stupid choices in a wide enough pool. That's not representative: I know boot camp grads at FAANGs. At smaller companies -- like mine -- it's not that we won't hire out of boot camps. We do, and have. But we're very conscious of search and training costs. Search costs can be somewhat fixed with money by using internal recruiters; training costs are horrific. Bootcamp grads are nearly useless i…

If the boot camp is used as a get up to speed mechanism by someone with a previous technical background of some kind, even tangential, I guess it could work out sometimes.

I tried to look for a junior dev recently and was flooded with boot camp resumes from career changers. The code samples were all more or less cut and paste type stuff where you could tell immediately that even if the candidate were a fairly bright and motivated person, the degree of handholding needed to ramp them up would be just impossible.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#56
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried therapy? The fact you are not able to concentrate and perform when "'Zuck' white guy personality type" (whatever "Zuck" type means) is present, suggests a deeper personal issues and biases that you need to work on and resolve. If there are no personal issues then your comment, honestly, comes across as a bit racist.

Your cultural beliefs and intuitions ARE personal issues and biases. They are challenging to overcome. Racist people don't get to being racist by reading a blog post or two; they develop and internalize it over time like any cultural trait. Same goes for these anxieties people of color feel. It's ignorant to not realize that all of these things are mental. Duh, therapy helps. Trust me, every single person of color wh…

I’m not sure I follow, I don’t think that if a white guy is present during your interview, he is automatically racist? What I got from your post is that you are having problems during interviews because you are not comfortable with white people conducting your interviews. It’s sounds like you are automatically assume that white interviewers are racist? You are broadly generalizing people who happened to be white which does not sound good any way you look at it.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#57
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only just occurred to me as I was reading OP's comment. The construction of "LatinX" has always bothered me for how contrived and nonstandard it is, but I think what's really been getting under my skin is that it's entirely superfluous. The meaning is entirely legitimate but since the word for it already exists I can't see any purpose for such a weird new one other than signaling woke group affiliation.

I read a recent poll that 90% of Latin Americans don't like the term.

The poll is here [0]. It was discussed recently in an NYT oped here [1]. It was an interesting result that definitely altered my opinion.

[0] https://medium.com/@ThinkNowTweets/progressive-latino-pollst...

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/05/opinion/latinix-warren-de...

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#59
post #49
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're going to find any stupid choices in a wide enough pool. That's not representative: I know boot camp grads at FAANGs. At smaller companies -- like mine -- it's not that we won't hire out of boot camps. We do, and have. But we're very conscious of search and training costs. Search costs can be somewhat fixed with money by using internal recruiters; training costs are horrific. Bootcamp grads are nearly useless i…

> Bootcamp grads are nearly useless in a professional environment without enormous amounts of senior / staff eng time. To be fair, this is also true for standard undergrads. The difference between a cooperative engineering student and a standard undergrad is quite staggering--9-12 months of working experience causes a vast differential.

Our experience is similar. The skills gained in the first year -- how to actually use git, basic db skills, bash skills, bundler/nvm/etc, better debugging, better problem solving, working outside of greenfield projects, etc make a huge difference.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#60
This stood out to me, and aligns with my observations in the (limited) female representation in the workplace:

> In India, for instance, about 35% of developers are women; in the U.S., it’s 16%

Does India not have the various gender biases we often attribute a large part of the problem to? What is India doing so well in this space to have over double the percentage of female software developers as the U.S.?

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