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Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

zdnet.com

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Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#131

Post by zaarn »

kerng wrote: post #127
LessDmesg wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This so much! Go would be a great language if it had generics and no "interface {}". I'd use that over any flavor of Rust any day.

I'm curious what the next big language iteration will bring. It's been a while that I got excited about a new language, last time was probably C#, but that's 20 years ago... Crazy, that there hasn't been any new language revolution sort of how Java was one. But maybe I should look more into new things like Julia, but they seem a bit niche.

I believe the next evolution will be to combine Rust and Lisp; a programming language as flexible as LISP without giving up the safety of Rust, including a typesystem that can be entirely coded in the language itself, safely.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#132

Post by mkl »

techntoke wrote: post #105
gigatexal wrote: post #54

What a huge validation of Rust. Here’s to hoping this improves Windows.

Lol, if they wanted to make it better they'd adopt some practices and tools from Linux to get common-sense developers interested instead of looking for MS drones that don't know why they do what they do.

They did: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/about

Linux tools run on Windows 10 just fine. WSL 2 even uses an actual Linux kernel.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#133

Post by bluejekyll »

zaarn wrote: post #131
kerng wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what the next big language iteration will bring. It's been a while that I got excited about a new language, last time was probably C#, but that's 20 years ago... Crazy, that there hasn't been any new language revolution sort of how Java was one. But maybe I should look more into new things like Julia, but they seem a bit niche.

I believe the next evolution will be to combine Rust and Lisp; a programming language as flexible as LISP without giving up the safety of Rust, including a typesystem that can be entirely coded in the language itself, safely.

Rust’s macro system gives you this already. Is there something you see it not providing that the language you’re imagining would?

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#134

Post by pimeys »

microcolonel wrote: post #101

Seems like Microsoft really needs Rust. They've completely gutted their prized aggressive prerelease testing, and the quality of the software they expose users to has declined dramatically.

I heard 70% of their bugs are related to memory handling or off-by-one errors. About 7 severe bugs per year. It can cost them from anywhere between 100k to 10M to fix the bugs and problems caused by these bugs.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#135

Post by zaarn »

bluejekyll wrote: post #133
zaarn wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the next evolution will be to combine Rust and Lisp; a programming language as flexible as LISP without giving up the safety of Rust, including a typesystem that can be entirely coded in the language itself, safely.

Rust’s macro system gives you this already. Is there something you see it not providing that the language you’re imagining would?

Rust's current macro's aren't as powerful as I would like them, and procedural macros are far more difficult and extremely hard to properly develop and debug.

The substitution macros aren't that much fun either since they lack certain capabilities (like introducing a new variable into the current scope without having to specify the name redundantly).

Without a lot of external libraries, procedural macros are almost impossible to write in my experience.

Neither of them allows one to properly code onto the type system or replace it and neither is properly supported by the IDEs (or RLS).

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#136

Post by agumonkey »

bluejekyll wrote: post #85
zozbot234 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The slides don't really add much detail. They're just a light introduction to the sort of region-based memory management that was already being used by Cyclone, well before the Rust project was even a thing.

> already being used by Cyclone, well before the Rust project was even a thing. Let’s be a little more accurate here. Rust is an actively developed language, Cyclone was a research project that I don’t believe has received an update since 2006. Rust also is explicit that it borrowed its lifetime concept from Cyclone. Rust is in use and gaining popularity in a way that Cyclone didn’t. This is a bit like the debate bet…

It's clear to most that rust invented few, but that nobody cared because we just wanted these features to reach the mainstream, which rust embodies. Maybe the rust trend train gives people a false impression of innovative messiah... I don't know.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#137

Post by slightwinder »

danso wrote: post #110
astrodust wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That's why people are still super nervous whenever Microsoft dares to embrace something new. Past experience. I'm not saying they're like that today, but that's why some people get all on-edge when Microsoft does things like this.

But he’s not the CEO any longer and he hasn’t been for years. So why is what he did more than a decade ago relevant absent of evidence that he has any direct control of the company today?

One CEO doesn't make an evil empire. Bad influence remains. Many evil minions that were forged from Bill Gates and then Steve Ballmer are still in the company. And ontop of this, Microsoft is still a big money-driven Company, so some natural evilness is always there.

Microsoft has become better in the last years, but they still do bad things. So why should people trust the wholeheartly?

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#138

Post by mrkeen »

zaarn wrote: post #131
kerng wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what the next big language iteration will bring. It's been a while that I got excited about a new language, last time was probably C#, but that's 20 years ago... Crazy, that there hasn't been any new language revolution sort of how Java was one. But maybe I should look more into new things like Julia, but they seem a bit niche.

I believe the next evolution will be to combine Rust and Lisp; a programming language as flexible as LISP without giving up the safety of Rust, including a typesystem that can be entirely coded in the language itself, safely.

> a typesystem that can be entirely coded in the language itself

The closest thing to this I can think of is Racket. It's supposedly powerful enough to embed Haskell in it https://lexi-lambda.github.io/hackett/

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#139

Post by blub »

smadurange wrote: post #84
orev wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me” I try to be objective as much as possible, but having witnessed almost all of Microsoft’s behavior through history, we have been fooled 100s if not 1000s of times. How many times do you let the fox back into the hen house? The only thing I think when I read recent “Microsoft is so great” comments is that the person is either too young to have any real knowledge…

Or you are just so bogged down in history that you have a difficulty changing your opinion. Few decades is a long time in our line of work. Microsoft didn't change out of charity or ethics. They were forced by the direction industry was heading as a whole. Cloud, opensource software, Google, AWS started making Microsoft irrelevant unless they changed.

Bogged down in history. One has to admire at least a little bit this attempt at gaslighting someone into not trusting their own experiences and Microsoft's long negative track-record which they're still adding to.

The telemetry scandal which has been reported on everywhere proves that Microsoft just changed into another Google. They're still collecting telemetry today, in spite of all the protests. A few hours isn't a long time in our line of work...

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#140

Post by mrkeen »

bluejekyll wrote: post #133
zaarn wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the next evolution will be to combine Rust and Lisp; a programming language as flexible as LISP without giving up the safety of Rust, including a typesystem that can be entirely coded in the language itself, safely.

Rust’s macro system gives you this already. Is there something you see it not providing that the language you’re imagining would?

I'd like to be able to hide Future, Vec, Result, etc. behind a trait.
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