Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#81

Post by z2 » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #45

z2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always roam when in China for short trips. The way cellular networks work is that roaming plans tend to route back home, so that your access is unfiltered. The plan could affect foreigners but it was hard for years already, in that most cellular stores require a Chinese ID to register monthly service (not all take passports). I used to get the salesperson or security guard to lend their ID in my stead, and this is ex…

The China Mobile stands in the airport that sell SIMs take passports...you’ll find them in international baggage claim, and also in the terminal. I’ve only successfully roamed with T-mobile on WiFi. Maybe its better now?

Good point, the ones at airports could more readily support passports, as opposed to a street-side authorized (or grey market) shop. More recently I've used Google Fi, which has the benefit of roaming on both Unicom and Mobile depending on signal strength, in addition to full internet access.

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#82

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

stelonix wrote: post #63

Thank you! The amount of anti-China jingoist sentiment these past months has been unbearable for anyone who does not share a bipolar world view. EDIT: "bipolar" as in "us vs them"

[deleted]

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#83

Post by jen20 » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #69

deogeo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There absolutely is moral equivalence - they're trying to cut off all means of anonymous communication. It's difficult to get a SIM without providing ID in the EU as well, and you have to provide ID when renting a room. I wish the media were always sensitive to privacy erosion, not just when China does it. I guess using Chinese surveillance tech is a roundabout way of getting them to pay attention, as happened with t…

Having a requirement to link a SIM to an individual is not privacy erosion. It does not mean that usage is monitored, and usage is the important privacy aspect. Furthermore, this just puts mobile phones on par with landlines. It used to be that having a phone meant having a landline at home, and obviously that meant knowing exactly who a number belonged to. There needs to be a balance for everything in the real world…

> It does not mean that usage is monitored, and usage is the important privacy aspect.

I think one would have to be especially naive to believe that an ID requirement is in place without any provision for usage monitoring.

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#84

Post by sudosysgen » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #55

classichasclass wrote: post #24

Not that there's any moral equivalence, but when I'm in Australia visiting in-laws, I have to provide my passport or similar ID to get my PAYG SIM activated. I just have them swipe it at the airport and my SIM is on in 10 minutes. My wife admits it's a lot easier in the States to get a PAYG SIM; AT&T doesn't care who she is as long as there's money in the account. I'm not sure why Australia does that, but it's really…

I just drove around Africa, and I bought a pre-paid SIM in about 30 different countries. Every single one of them required a copy of my passport.

In Morocco at least they do ask for your passport if you want free or discounted cell service, but you can always go to a corner store and just get a Sim card from there.

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#85

Post by mytailorisrich » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

China has been requiring IDs to buy SIM card for at least 20 years.

Chinese also already have ID cards, 'hukou' (a sort of domestic passport), etc. so I would imagine that the government already has everyone's face on record.

Thus, this seems about enforcing the requirement to provide ID when buying a SIM, because enforcement of rules can be problematic in China.

Which reminds me...

They are (obviously?) having problems collecting sales tax. So at one point they are issuing formal receipts as vouchers that eg. restaurants had to buy form the tax office. A sort of advance payment. When a customer asked for a receipt the restaurant gave them a number of these vouchers.

The smart idea is that they had turned these vouchers into scratch cards to encourage people to request a receipt...

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#86

Post by threatofrain » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #50

The title sounds intentionally provocative -- "face scanned" appears to be just "have their photo taken". I can't find a single source that suggests anything more than that. Which isn't much different from having your photo taken for your driver's license, passport, or at the border, all of which the US does. Burner phones are mostly associated with criminal activity, so tying phones to identities feels like a legiti…

> If you're concerned with privacy, that's what encrypted communications are for, and if you don't want to be tracked by radio, then don't take any phone with you.

Then people like my mom get tracked and people like my nerdy friends don't. When one thinks of policy and consequence surely one doesn't simply say "well she exercised her agency, so that's that."

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#87

Post by CharlesColeman » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

Miner49er wrote: post #48

corporate_shi11 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think comparisons like this ignore something fundamental, which is the values that both countries champion. The USA is a democracy and has by and large championed democracy around the world. China is ruled by a 1974 style dictatorship, a country ruled by a single Party not the rule of law. Comparisons between the US and the CCP conveniently ignore this, yet it is what really matters. Law enforcement will always exi…

If you look at China's constitution they value the same stuff as the United States. They are a democracy by their values, just like the U.S. Words are meaningless if not backed up by action.

> If you look at China's constitution they value the same stuff as the United States. They are a democracy by their values, just like the U.S.

> Words are meaningless if not backed up by action.

Exactly: the PRC's constitution forbids gender discrimination, but even government job postings will frequently ask for men only. That shows how significant the words are, in this case.

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#88

Post by brndnmg » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

In South Africa we have had to abide by FICA act for many years already, months of bank statements, identity document, proof of address etc., there has already been abuses of this information to identify corruption leaks to reporters...

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#89

Post by mytailorisrich » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

jen20 wrote: post #83

mytailorisrich wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a requirement to link a SIM to an individual is not privacy erosion. It does not mean that usage is monitored, and usage is the important privacy aspect. Furthermore, this just puts mobile phones on par with landlines. It used to be that having a phone meant having a landline at home, and obviously that meant knowing exactly who a number belonged to. There needs to be a balance for everything in the real world…

> It does not mean that usage is monitored, and usage is the important privacy aspect. I think one would have to be especially naive to believe that an ID requirement is in place without any provision for usage monitoring.

Do you think someone is monitoring your landline?

Re: Chinese telecoms must use "AI and other technical means" to identify phone users

#90

Post by throw476543 » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

corporate_shi11 wrote: post #34

braythwayt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without agreeing or disagreeing with them, we should accept that people have said exactly the same things about the USA, about the Soviet Union, about Russia, about Britain... And on and on. I am not trying to play “whatabout,” but I do ask: Is there anything different about China’s behaviour as a superpower? Or are we just seeing a shift in which superpowers have world influence? At the moment I write this, the fron…

I think comparisons like this ignore something fundamental, which is the values that both countries champion. The USA is a democracy and has by and large championed democracy around the world. China is ruled by a 1974 style dictatorship, a country ruled by a single Party not the rule of law. Comparisons between the US and the CCP conveniently ignore this, yet it is what really matters. Law enforcement will always exi…

It took the US over 200 years to fully embrace its values. It’ll take time for opposing groups inside China to change it.

Remember that Xi was sent to a re-education camp in his youth and was initially considered to be an average politician. If he was able to rise to power, there’s no telling what changes can happen in the decades to come.