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Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

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141–150 of 326 posts

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#141
post #113
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a bit counter intuitive, but the best way to lower the cost of housing for the poor is to build more housing for the upper middle class and up. They will trade up houses which will increase the supply of used houses driving down their price The problem is that housing in any location is not a closed system with fixed demand. It is an open system in which increased supply can generate increased demand. When you…

>upper middle class and up people who previously decided to live further away over paying the extreme rent costs move in, the population grows, and the price break never trickles down to the poor people in the city It does because the poor people move into the housing that the upper middle class vacated. Population growth is an independent confounding factor. In other words, housing cost can still go up due to popula…

>It does because the poor people move into the housing that the upper middle class vacated

That only works if the system is closed. If housing in the bay area goes down in price, you get people moving in from New York, LA, Boston, Austin, etc who previously avoided the area due to costs. Do you just ship off those poor people to those vacated homes hundred or thousands of miles away?

>Population growth is an independent confounding factor. In other words, housing cost can still go up due to population growth but they would go up less if the new luxury housing is built.

This is of course true. The question is just will building new luxury housing increase population growth to an extent that swallows the whole price break before it ever flows down to the bottom of the market?

>But you can't. You have high fixed costs like land, hook ups to the city utilities, architect work, plumbing, electrical, permits, and HVAC.

The reason housing in the bay area is so high has nothing to do with fixed material costs or else housing everywhere would be that astronomical. The reason housing is so high is because demand is high and the supply of land is limited. Land is the primary costs. You fight that by building vertically. The higher the building, the lower the marginal cost of land for each unit and therefore things become more affordable. But like I said in my first post, this doesn't happen if everything is left up to the market because it isn't the way to be most profitable, so the government would need to be involved to incentivize this.

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#142

The whole topic of conversation around housing affordability is backwards. Specifically, housing affordability is 100%, entirely, a problem of artificial constraints on supply by city councils. (1) Americans consider housing to be an investment. An investment is only an investment if you expect a positive return over time. We generally want that investment to match or exceed inflation. (2) That's antithetical to the…

   We don't talk about the lack of affordable AAPL shares do we? That's insane, it's an investment, we want it to go up. The less affordable, the better!
Isn't that pretty much what stock splits are for?

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#143
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't really save all that much money by building a barely livable pod vs an actual apartment. The big cost items are kitchens and bathrooms. Those are mostly fixed costs, i.e. it costs the same to plumb a toilet, shower, and sink in a 50 sq foot bathroom as a 100 sq foot one. Only when you get to stupid high real estate cost does a ~300 sq foot pod start making sense over ~600 ft 1 bed or ~1000 sq ft 2 beds. It'…

A lot of older apartments don‘t have full kitchens, but that isn‘t a bad thing. Some people just don‘t need full kitchens, and you can get by with a hot plate and a rice cooker.

A full appliance package can be bought for under 2 grand retail. You can save a little bit of labor/material by eliminating the need for a couple circuits, but not that much. Not much extra work to pull additional wires if you already have to do one. So the savings just aren't there to meaningfully impact the housing cost.

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always like to say that everyone is short a house, and your first property is just covering that short position. It's only properties after that first one that are investments.

This doesn't cover many many people for various reasons. Ie I own 2 properties and I live in neither (house that I bought for my parents 1500km away, investment apartment in the mountains). I rent, because a) it doesn't make much sense to buy a property in traditional sense here where I live, too costly; b) we're not yet stabilized on location with first kid coming, and pinning us down to specific place before this i…

I think jdmichal’s point was that if you don’t own a property, you’ll lose money (in the form of increased rent) if the real estate market goes up. In effect, you are born with a short position on the market just by needing a place to live, and owning your primary residence gets you to neutral.

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#145
The reason midwestern cities hardly have housing bubbles like the coastal areas do is because old housing is cheap and competes with renting. Landlords can't afford to not be lenient. Although the only change I wish to see is that tenants could more easily enforce their rights and Landlords had to follow the law.

Most midwestern state governments are very laissez faire about the whole thing which is incredibly annoying. Apartment cleaning is illegal to make tenants pay for or withold a security deposit, yet they still do it anyway cause landlords know tenants aren't taking them to small claims for it. As a tenant, you need housing references. So taking your landlord to court over $100 is a surefire way to making you ineligible for further tenancy basically.

Landlords don't like tenants that know and enforce their rights.

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#146
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a bit counter intuitive, but the best way to lower the cost of housing for the poor is to build more housing for the upper middle class and up. They will trade up houses which will increase the supply of used houses driving down their price The problem is that housing in any location is not a closed system with fixed demand. It is an open system in which increased supply can generate increased demand. When you…

If you keep building, eventually you will meet the pent up demand. Your scenario might match the first batch of new housing, but it can't continue indefinitely. Eventually you have more houses than people. There is a ton of pent-up demand in the bay area, because this has been going on for a long time. People who own houses there are going to fight you the whole way.

You are of course right in theory. There is some point in which things will stablize and demand is fully satisfied. However that is where your second paragraph comes into play too. It isn't just people who own the homes that are disincentivized from allowing that to happen, real estate developers also don't want housing to get to that point either. And who is the one deciding what gets built with a market approach to the problem? Developers. In a market approach, developers inherently want built up demand and therefore they will never build to a point in which demand is saturated. Once again, you need government intervention.

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does a pod need a kitchen and bathroom? Basic human dignity? Being forced to share an intimate thing such as a bathroom with strangers or depending on strangers not eating your food/trashing your stuff or not being able to feed yourself because another person is cooking a 5-rounds-meal is not something that should be acceptable in a developed nation.

As someone who has actually spent a few years in this type of living arrangement, having a communal bathroom when it is clean and there is no line was just fine for my dignity, and vastly preferable to having no house or spending 3+ hours and several dollars a day to commute.

I also have spent time in such an arrangement and let's keep it at "you're fucked when two or more people have diarrhea".

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#148
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just tax base. If you have a lot of people taking transit you can recover the costs of the system just from riders paying their fare, and the riders are saving money over the cost for insuring a car for a year. Less dense areas cannot do this, both because people need to go farther (less dense means you have to go farther to get there), and because there are less riders. Dense areas need less taxes in genera…

I am not so sure that dense areas need fewer taxes. Some of the most heavily taxes areas are dense cities.

They NEED less taxes for the same amount of infrastructure. They have more anyway because things less dense areas cannot afford at any price are affordable. That is they are getting more for their money, but also spending more.

I'm making two assumptions above: corruption, and higher cost of living forcing higher wagers are both not significant issues. Both are factors, but I'm going to contend they are not significant - you get to decide if you believe me (different answers for different cities are likely!)

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#149

The whole topic of conversation around housing affordability is backwards. Specifically, housing affordability is 100%, entirely, a problem of artificial constraints on supply by city councils. (1) Americans consider housing to be an investment. An investment is only an investment if you expect a positive return over time. We generally want that investment to match or exceed inflation. (2) That's antithetical to the…

"Micro apartments", short term rentals, lower than hotel level of service. this is what we need. These housing restrictions raise the minimum affordable rent causing people to live with their parents or find roommates which is risky. And it's funny, because times have certainly changed and got stricter in regards to minimum livability. My mom's apartment in manhatten as a child had the bathtub in the kitchen, it's still no unheard of there.

Do i need a huge fridge, sink, 4 burner stove with oven and all? Not really.

I don't need a window in my bedroom.

I don't _need_ a private bathroom.

I don't _need_ a private kitchen.

Re: Oakland shows how to expand housing supply: tell developers they can build homes

#150

The whole topic of conversation around housing affordability is backwards. Specifically, housing affordability is 100%, entirely, a problem of artificial constraints on supply by city councils. (1) Americans consider housing to be an investment. An investment is only an investment if you expect a positive return over time. We generally want that investment to match or exceed inflation. (2) That's antithetical to the…

> Specifically, housing affordability is 100%, entirely, a problem of artificial constraints on supply by city councils.

Not just city councils. Residents, environmental groups, and special interest groups controlled by residents have a huge influence on limiting housing through legislation as well. Often places where housing is approved by the city are stalled in courts for years. City councils can control some of the lawsuits by reforming local laws but there is a huge number of individual residents who are willing to spend absurd amounts of money preventing people from building a new 6 unit apartment at the end of the block.

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