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Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

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Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#81

Post by andbberger »

natmaka wrote: post #69
andbberger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I doubt anybody will get the costs down enough to make them viable [citation needed] This was discussed recently and I really down understand the immense skepticism exhibited on HN (and in general) towards nuclear energy. Sure it's expensive now, but it's been misregulated into a pulp and all extant nuclear reactors are using decades old designs. AND you need to compare the cost of nuclear to renewables PLUS st…

Many nuclear power-plant projects, conducted by experts, are way late and over-budget. See Olkiluoto, Flamanville. Many potential units are purely and simply cancelled because they are too financially risky (notwithstanding other risks) given the falling costs of solar and wind. The hot nuclear waste disposal challenge is not solved, wherever you check (France and the US, experts both are "in the process of solving i…

The past is a good predictor of the future... until it isn't. Extremely drastic change is needed to avert climate emergencies. How much of the problems you discuss go away when the red tape has been cut?

I don't buy that waste is a serious problem. The US treats all secondary waste as if it's red hot. And as I said above, all extant reactor designs are decades old.

If your only point of comparison is 60 year old computers using 10s of kilowatts, you might argue that computers will never be economical to use. Yet smartphone CPUs have a TDP of what, one watt?

> Until now the taxpayer covers it, but our impoverished nations just cannot cope anymore.

Our nations have plenty of money it's just all concentrated at the very top. We used to fund advanced reactor projects [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#83

Post by acidburnNSA »

Retric wrote: post #50
andbberger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I doubt anybody will get the costs down enough to make them viable [citation needed] This was discussed recently and I really down understand the immense skepticism exhibited on HN (and in general) towards nuclear energy. Sure it's expensive now, but it's been misregulated into a pulp and all extant nuclear reactors are using decades old designs. AND you need to compare the cost of nuclear to renewables PLUS st…

Nuclear currently has a huge range of issues that’s outside of reactor design. Even assuming a 50% cost reduction seems viable, it’s still expensive. Permit’s and regulation are real and significant costs. In an ideal world they would be lower, but realistically you need to consider them Next, load following is critical as renewable energy regulatory reduces the spot price of electricity near zero. Breakeven right no…

Gas turbines are indeed simple. And fracked gas is amazingly cheap and plentiful. The problem there is that it's exceedingly high carbon. If you factor in methane leakage at the wells and in the pipes it approaches and even exceeds coal carbon emissions. We must stop locking in fracked gas turbines if we are to avoid climate change issues.

Nuclear companies are trying to deal with load following by coupling to energy storage systems like thermal storage (molten salts), pumped hydro, and batteries. In an increasingly variable-renewable world, more energy storage is required. The nukes can be used to charge batteries in the daytime while the solar PV runs the grid, and then for the evening peak while solar ramps down, the nukes and batteries carry the evening, and then the nukes do the baseload at night.

The one thing that nuclear reactors can do that no other energy source can do is provide hugely-deployable 24/7 low-carbon energy for over a year (e.g. through the seasons). Hydro can do it in some places but it's mostly maxed out in the proper geography.

Finally, EROI on wind/solar with massive battery systems gets dangerously low.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#84

Post by natmaka »

Reedx wrote: post #51
thawaway1837 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if the “green energy” people actually had that much power... In reality there are 2 forces that have stopped nuclear. NIMBYism. And terrible economics. But the green energy people are an easy punching bag for the nuclear advocates who are simply unwilling to face up to the reality of why nuclear keeps failing to take off.

Nuclear energy languished largely because of fear, I think. Our failure to invest in nuclear the past several decades was a huge mistake that future generations will rightfully scorn us for.

After a bunch of mishaps (Fukushima being the more recent) it becomes more and more difficult to pretend that nuke plants aren't dangerous.

It justifies fear.

Moreover the waste management problem is not solved.

During the last decades more and more citizen are less and less willing to pay for nuke plants.

In democracies imposing is pretty difficult, and IMHO it's a good thing.

In the same timeframe wind, and even more during the last decade, solar plants costs quickly declined, and even more so nowadays.

Meanwhile nuke specialists experienced in building and running plants retire.

https://www.irena.org/publications/2019/May/Renewable-power-...

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#85

Post by xorfish »

natmaka wrote: post #69
andbberger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I doubt anybody will get the costs down enough to make them viable [citation needed] This was discussed recently and I really down understand the immense skepticism exhibited on HN (and in general) towards nuclear energy. Sure it's expensive now, but it's been misregulated into a pulp and all extant nuclear reactors are using decades old designs. AND you need to compare the cost of nuclear to renewables PLUS st…

Many nuclear power-plant projects, conducted by experts, are way late and over-budget. See Olkiluoto, Flamanville. Many potential units are purely and simply cancelled because they are too financially risky (notwithstanding other risks) given the falling costs of solar and wind. The hot nuclear waste disposal challenge is not solved, wherever you check (France and the US, experts both are "in the process of solving i…

A recator that can be passively cooled and operates at atmosphere pressure will not have the problems of these big reactors. A small design that can be produced in a factory will make the cost reasonable and preictable.

The integral molten salt reactor has these advantages and should be comercialy available wothin 10 years.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#86

Post by brnt »

natmaka wrote: post #69
andbberger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I doubt anybody will get the costs down enough to make them viable [citation needed] This was discussed recently and I really down understand the immense skepticism exhibited on HN (and in general) towards nuclear energy. Sure it's expensive now, but it's been misregulated into a pulp and all extant nuclear reactors are using decades old designs. AND you need to compare the cost of nuclear to renewables PLUS st…

Many nuclear power-plant projects, conducted by experts, are way late and over-budget. See Olkiluoto, Flamanville. Many potential units are purely and simply cancelled because they are too financially risky (notwithstanding other risks) given the falling costs of solar and wind. The hot nuclear waste disposal challenge is not solved, wherever you check (France and the US, experts both are "in the process of solving i…

Waste disposal has been solved, which doesn't mean new processes and locations aren't being developes. See Urenco. Finland and the US refuse to recycle, which makes their need for very special storage even greater. But France and most of Europe use Urenco.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#87

Post by phreeza »

StillBored wrote: post #3

A few years ago Toshiba was going to build a small reactor in Alaska. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galena_Nuclear_Power_Plant But it got canceled, and for the life of me I can't understand why anyone thinks its better to truck in heavy fuel oil for generators vs having a small reactor buried in the ground for 30 years. I've been saying for a few years now that green energy only advocates are basically on the side of…

Non-hydro renewables overtook hydro a couple of years ago in the US, and are on track to overtake nuclear, too, in a couple more years.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/images/Fig34.png

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#88

Post by Reedx »

natmaka wrote: post #84
Reedx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear energy languished largely because of fear, I think. Our failure to invest in nuclear the past several decades was a huge mistake that future generations will rightfully scorn us for.

After a bunch of mishaps (Fukushima being the more recent) it becomes more and more difficult to pretend that nuke plants aren't dangerous. It justifies fear. Moreover the waste management problem is not solved. During the last decades more and more citizen are less and less willing to pay for nuke plants. In democracies imposing is pretty difficult, and IMHO it's a good thing. In the same timeframe wind, and even mo…

Except nuclear energy is the safest form of power: https://ourworldindata.org/what-is-the-safest-form-of-energy

As for Fukushima, more died as a result from it being shut down than in the disaster: https://www.economist.com/asia/2019/11/07/was-shutting-japan...

Furthermore, it lead to a surge in imports of dirty fuels. More coal and oil.

Re: Canadian provinces band together to develop nuclear reactor technology

#89

Post by ghomrassen »

dghughes wrote: post #40

Those not up on Canadian politics may not see what a Canadian would see here. These are three politically conservative premiers (think US state governor) that are often aggressive in their policies; cuts to social programs, anti-environmental, no carbon tax. Knowing their policies it makes this out-of-the-blue project seem suspicious. I'm all for nuclear power especially if it's using CANDU reactors and thorium. But…

Or they have a better working relationships because they same similar goals.

Conservatives aren't evil bogeymen who want to destroy the environment wholesale, they want to find a realistic solution to the problem. Add to the fact that Ontario has a history of failed green projects in wind power that have eaten billions of dollars. If these conservative premiers can throw some money together, cut some red tape and get projects moving in the right direction, we should all be applauding.

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