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Belarus’s Soviet Economy

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Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#181
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"made the country dependent on Russian markets, oil, gas, money" How exactly did they do it? It's not like with different president Belarus wouldn't need all that. You need to take responsibility for your country instead of blaming Russia and emigrating.

They sold oil and gas with discounts, pushed for economic union, gave preferences. Belarusian government did not do anything to help private businesses, attract investors, go to new markets and industries. To keep their power, they sold country. About “taking responsibility” - people actually take responsibility for their future, family, children. That’s why they migrate. One can only take responsibility over what th…

So now discounts and preferences are a bad thing suddenly?

"Belarusian government did not do anything"

How is that Russia's fault?

"To keep their power, they sold country"

What exactly did Russia get? Belarus is still a sovereign country.

So you are saying that you would've stayed in Belarus if not for Russia?

Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#183
Russia is in decline due to the same reasons the USSR declined and fell. The costs of communist oligarchs taking the products of their 'slaves' and wasting them on assorted diseconomies with not enough production feedback. There is a joke where Ivan says to Modred in Mpscow, "you know that after the next 5 year plan we will all have our own personal aircraft?", Modred then says "Excellent, if we hear they have matches (or toilet paper) in Vladivostok, we can fly there and be first in line!). Now Putin has imposed a from of the same system that 'overtaxes' by kleptocratic means essentially all the growth the current free 'slaves' create. Thus the amount of work product (money, stuff etc) each of these 'slaves' has at their disposal decreases every year. This is well documented in unofficially reported economic aspects of life. The reported ones are glorious. Military expenditure is essentially a complete waste of money, as it is in the USA, however the USA bears it more easily from it's far far larger base. China is the bear in tha dark that China is readying it's military for - they have nothing to fear from the USA but fear itself. China fears the assembled warheads Russia has - against which it has no defence. Sure it can bomb Russia back, but Russia has it's nor-so-secret cobalt submarines.https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a24216/pen... a few dozen of these could devastate and dender into death zones for 100 years large swathes of China. This will make China think twice about expanding into the Russian far East. Russia has a population in serious decline. Only the Moslem areas are growing. Other Russians are in a devastating decline https://www.fairplanet.org/story/simply-math-no-russians-by-..., So why does Putin not change? He has the classic Tiger by the tail problem. He and his fellow oligarchs have beggared the Russian economy - how does he unbeggar it? He can not. He can only hand on until he is inevitably devoured by the tiger - or his own friends when he tries to rein them in!

Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#184
post #8

The former soviet states are a great natural experiment in economics. Countries that liberalized their economies, like Estonia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, and Latvia (the "mostly free" countries here: https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking ) have grown much faster than countries that retained socialism and central planning, like Ukraine, Belarus, and Moldova. See: https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/aug/17…

Even during soviet occupation, all of the Baltic countries were already way ahead,compared to the likes of Azerbaijan or Kazachstan. There are many more reasons,such as mentality, culture, geographical location and education that influenced it. Economical model was only one piece of the whole picture.

Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#185

I had my second trip to Minsk last week to work with a local IT company. I was very impressed with the technical skills of the people there. Belarus and Minsk are advanced in many ways (metro with trains every 2 minutes), electric busses (powered by capacitors, not batteries), mobile phone (MTS shop at the airport sells a $9 SIM with unlimited data for a month), Yandex taxis beats Uber, etc, etc. The main downside I…

Keep in mind that IT domain is somewhat separated from the rest of all other economics of Belarus. Pay rates in IT-related companies a much higher than in in almost any other domain. On the other side, most of heavy industry, education and medical service are in decline.

Frequency of metro trains is reduced if compared to what there was had few years ago. 2 minute intervals are only on rush hours. Most of other time it's ~7-10m intervals.

Electric buses are used only on single route in the center of the Minsk.

Yandex and Uber in Minsk are joined into single company. So you can't say that Yandex beat Uber :)

> $9 SIM with unlimited data for a month

I suspect that this is not true. AFAIK, there are no real "unlimited" plans. There always a cap on total volume of data.

Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#186
There are much better (and almost viciously critical articles) written on the subject even 5 years ago [1]

There were similar predictions in 2014

>"... Lukashenko does face problems. Russia is cutting its subsidies.

Belarus struggles to sell its outdated tractors and trucks in an age of global competition. The economy is deteriorating. ...

Russia's President Putin could engineer Lukashenko's removal simply by stopping subsidised oil and gas deliveries altogether. Belarus receives roughly four times more Russian oil than it needs for domestic consumption, refines the surplus and sells it on the open market for a profit. Putin must be tempted. He loathes Lukashenko, who has cleverly played Russia off against the EU over the past 20 years, reneged on promises to Moscow, and frustrated Russian attempts to gain control of the Belarusian state gas company, pipelines and refineries.

... " [1]

These predictions did not really turn out to be true in terms of regime change or Venesuela-like horror.

There are very few countries in the world, that in the last 100 years experienced what Belorussians did:

> ".. The Nazis killed more than two million Belarusians - a quarter of the population.. " [1]

> "... Chernobyl disaster of 1986, which contaminated a fifth of the country and millions of its people ..." [1]

In a way, it explains a bit of how people think there... Basically, as long as it is not worst then before -- than we are ok. And one can see from above, the 'before' was really bad...

Belorussians are not going to revolt, if there is a forced change in leadership, the transition will not be perfectly peaceful, but will not be bloody, And it will only happen to a person that Putin is ok with.

Russian is pretty much 'the language' in that country, and really the affinity to Russia goes far beyond the language. In way of political views/desire to change -- Belorussian's are much milder than Russians'.

Comparing Belarus to Estonia or Lithuania, in terms of 'what-would-happen', I think are wrong. Those republics received a lot of help from the West, and are culturally (including language) were much more aligned with Finland/Norway.

Belarus would more likely compare to a land-locked countries like Armenia or Albania.

Many who did not like the regime, immigrated to Germany. Lukashenko is not holding anybody from leaving.

Law enforcement in Belarus is one of the highest paid government-paid jobs. So state apparatus used to monitor opposition (but unlike in US, they do not need to cheat FISA courts, those things are already 'built-in') Especially, when it comes to foreign-sponsored opposition

"....

Organisers of the protest, linked to George Soros, called the march “Freedom Day”, evoking the independent Belarus that lasted just six months after the First World War, in 1918. They tried to march down one of the major streets in Minsk, but were blocked by police who arrested them, along with journalists covering the protest, Alexander Ponomarev told AP news agency.

..." [2]

In terms how Belarus is positioning itself in the worlds import/export markets

It is same way, as Politicians use their family members and charity foundations to do money loundring and bribes.... Basically a mechanism to avoid sanctions and laws...

https://belsat.eu/en/news/mensk-patlumachyu-rost-ekspartu-be... >"... The fact that Belarus is supplying the Russian market with the enormous amount of exotic tropical fruits cannot but sparked a massive public outcry. Although the fruit isn’t grown in the Eastern European country, the export of kiwis went up by 151%.

At the same time, the ban imposed by Russia clearly prohibits re-export, and that is exactly what Belarus is suspected of by Moscow.

The Belarusian Prime Minister claims that the fruits supplied should not be affected by sanctions.

..."

Same goes, probably for military equipment exports...

[1] https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/belarus-dictatorship-a...

[2] http://freewestmedia.com/2017/03/26/another-soros-colour-rev...

Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#187
post #8

The former soviet states are a great natural experiment in economics. Countries that liberalized their economies, like Estonia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, and Latvia (the "mostly free" countries here: https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking ) have grown much faster than countries that retained socialism and central planning, like Ukraine, Belarus, and Moldova. See: https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/aug/17…

Even during soviet occupation, all of the Baltic countries were already way ahead,compared to the likes of Azerbaijan or Kazachstan. There are many more reasons,such as mentality, culture, geographical location and education that influenced it. Economical model was only one piece of the whole picture.

> There are many more reasons,such as mentality, culture, geographical location and education that influenced it.

These traits are the same in Korea, yet there's a drastic difference between South and North.

Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine liberalized its economy and it pretty much destroyed the place. The whole GDP growth fetish is a lot of horse shit; some measure needs to be taken that the increase in GDP doesn't destroy the lives of some large swathe of the population like it did in Russia. Belarus may be led by a repressive dictator, but the fact that it didn't experience the absurd declines in life expectancy and quality of life in the 90…

Ukraine is listed as “mostly unfree” in the listing above, so no.

Ok so let’s look at the countries highest on the Economic Freedom index.

Hong Kong tops the list right? It has what you would expect...

Capital has flowed in and normally that would have pushed blue collar workers and children and elderly out, with people commuting 2 hours each way as in SF. But since these are islands, the poor live in coffin like shoebox apartments, far smaller than anything allowed in US cities. Millions form entire communities of poverty around there, raise children there etc.

How large an effect are we talking? 20% of Hong Kong is below the poverty line. I did the math and any four people below the poverty line cannot together afford a studio apartment in normal areas of Hong Kong.

Hong Kong has had to aggressively increase its welfare and safety nets. It has over 40 public hospitals and 20 private ones.

Suffice it to say that around the world, government-run and single-payer healthcare and schooling has been compatible with high scores on economic freedom. It’s only in the USA do we have this ridiculous fearmongering about that.

Hong Kong has, in many measures, a very strong safety net and strong public sector. Ditto for Singapore etc. And larger countries in Scandinavia, and Canada and Australia etc. are similar.

Much of the centrally coordinated infrastructure investment has paid off - in the US we had the interstate highway system, China lifted more people out of poverty in 20 years through centrally planned “ghost cities” than any place on Earth ever, and the USSR did a great job of increasing literacy, electricity, bringing universities, rights to women and minorities, to countries like Uzbekistan and that whole region. Child mortality declined greatly, as people got better access to healthcare.

Not to say that everything is black and white, but “economic freedom” and capitalism isn’t the only way science and technology and prosperity moves forward.

Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#189
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minsk is a great city indeed. IT is pretty strong, many startups evolved recently (Wannaby, OneSoil, MSQRD (aq. by Facebook), Fabby (aq. by Google), PandaDoc) Sorry for the meals - Belarusians love their potatoes. There are some 300+ dishes recorded in Belarus - that it came to be considered the core of the national cuisine. P.S. Not quite related to the meals, but Belarus bans use of plastic plates in restaurants re…

> Belarusians love their potatoes I am a bit fascinated as to how this came to be from Ireland to Russia, given that the potato is native to the Americas, and thus was unknown in Europe before around 1500 CE.

"Traditional cuisine" is often more recent than we think. Tomatoes aren't native to Italy. Chilli peppers aren't native to India or Thailand.

Re: Belarus’s Soviet Economy

#190
post #8

The former soviet states are a great natural experiment in economics. Countries that liberalized their economies, like Estonia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, and Latvia (the "mostly free" countries here: https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking ) have grown much faster than countries that retained socialism and central planning, like Ukraine, Belarus, and Moldova. See: https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/aug/17…

Ukraine liberalized its economy and it pretty much destroyed the place. The whole GDP growth fetish is a lot of horse shit; some measure needs to be taken that the increase in GDP doesn't destroy the lives of some large swathe of the population like it did in Russia. Belarus may be led by a repressive dictator, but the fact that it didn't experience the absurd declines in life expectancy and quality of life in the 90…

Ukraine did not "liberalize" it. The economy was destroyed by "privatization", which effectively meant giving away state resources to those already with money and power - the former Communist class and criminals.

It was planned post-Soviet chaos, and chaos attracts grifters and opportunists. The regular people down in the trenches had no clue that they were being robbed blind.

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