SAGE also didn’t have any goofy fake control panels with a place to put your liquor
No, but the Weapons Director Console incorporated an ashtray and cigarette lighter on the left side.
Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
31–40 of 113 posts
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#32It's funny in a way, that a modern person believes that through technology we can very well reach consciousness with computers, go to Mars, design our genes, achieve immortality, colonize the universe, find the "god's particle", and so on, but successfully modelling an economy is impossible...
I don't think it is so far fetched. The economy is the product of human interactions, and I think understanding a single human being is more challenging than everything you listed, except maybe consciousness (but perhaps artificial consciousness will be achieved partly by accident).
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#33FWIW, the Nobel prize in economics isn't a real Nobel per se. The Nobel family was very against it's inclusion in the 60s (it was added by the Swedish Central Bank as a celebration), and is awarded mostly by members of the Mont Pelerin Society for whoever circle jerks neoliberal ideas the best.
No, the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel is referred to by reputable news organizations as a Nobel prize. The prize is determined by the same committee that decides the other prizes, and is awarded in the same ceremony. The only difference is who pays for it: the Swedish central bank donated to the Nobel foundation to cover the awards.
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#34It's funny in a way, that a modern person believes that through technology we can very well reach consciousness with computers, go to Mars, design our genes, achieve immortality, colonize the universe, find the "god's particle", and so on, but successfully modelling an economy is impossible...
I don't think that's the precise way people feel. Socialism/etc HAS "failed", and capitalism HAS "succeeded", for certain definitions of failed and succeeded. What people assume is that socialism today would fail (and I agree). But if presented with new facts, e.g. here is a robot that can produce food, gather solar power, and manufacture goods for you, and there is one per household, suddenly the literal definition…
Well, modern capitalism is socialism (the US for example or EU are hardly "free markets", there are all sorts of protections, interventions, tarrifs - hardly a Trump novelty -, things like copyright (another artificial government given restriction on trade and manufacturing, central monetary policy, huge armies and postcolonial negotiations to secure favorable deals, mass surveillance, and so on.
And modern socialism (whether what the US calls as such in the nordic countries or France, or what they have in China) is also a whole lotta of capitalism, so there's that too.
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nixon was extremely concerned about Chile, had constant updates from, and made it a high level goal of his presidency to overthrow Allende. The trashman strike was for sure CIA organized for instance. And it's a lot easier for your propaganda to take when your troops aren't committing massacres in the country like in Vietnam.
Nixon also made Vietnamization a high level goal of his presidency. How did that work out? Propaganda? Latin America is based on caste. If your "revolution" is based on stealing from the Spanish-blooded landowners to feed Amerindian losers who breed like rabbits, you will get opposition. Not much propaganda needed. And when the landowners send their sons to the army officer corps, you will have opposition with actual…
>Propaganda? Latin America is based on caste. If your "revolution" is based on stealing from the Spanish-blooded landowners to feed Amerindian losers who breed like rabbits, you will get opposition.
Pretty clear what your views are.
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#36A sad trod through a common delusion of grandeur I see on the internet these days. If the Chilean control room was really ripped off of Star Trek, that's a little absurd and hilarious but moreover sad. On the flip side, I'm not sure how much I agree with its premise and conclusion. Sure, it's easy to mock technocommunism historically if you ignore the elephant in the room that is China. While not in the same category…
China basically promised the people who are now in their 40s and 50s benefits that they will not get. This also happened in former Soviet countries. China has destroyed some of their environment, trading off building up industry for pollution. This also happened in former Soviet countries.
You mean like lifting more than 300 millions people out of dire poverty? Chinese in their 40s and 50s rabidly defend their government, because it delivered. I bemoan lack of democracy, Xinjiang repression, pollution and all the rest; but the fact is that the past 30 years have been a success of unseen proportions for China.
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#37It's funny in a way, that a modern person believes that through technology we can very well reach consciousness with computers, go to Mars, design our genes, achieve immortality, colonize the universe, find the "god's particle", and so on, but successfully modelling an economy is impossible...
I don't think that's the precise way people feel. Socialism/etc HAS "failed", and capitalism HAS "succeeded", for certain definitions of failed and succeeded. What people assume is that socialism today would fail (and I agree). But if presented with new facts, e.g. here is a robot that can produce food, gather solar power, and manufacture goods for you, and there is one per household, suddenly the literal definition…
The literal definition of socialism is an impossibility, power always gets concentrated among the few.
"This time will be different" crowd hadn't been compelling. Human nature hadn't changed.
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#38FWIW, the Nobel prize in economics isn't a real Nobel per se. The Nobel family was very against it's inclusion in the 60s (it was added by the Swedish Central Bank as a celebration), and is awarded mostly by members of the Mont Pelerin Society for whoever circle jerks neoliberal ideas the best.
No, the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel is referred to by reputable news organizations as a Nobel prize. The prize is determined by the same committee that decides the other prizes, and is awarded in the same ceremony. The only difference is who pays for it: the Swedish central bank donated to the Nobel foundation to cover the awards. https://www.nobelprize.org/about/
That doesn't seem to be fully accurate.
https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691166032/th...
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think that's the precise way people feel. Socialism/etc HAS "failed", and capitalism HAS "succeeded", for certain definitions of failed and succeeded. What people assume is that socialism today would fail (and I agree). But if presented with new facts, e.g. here is a robot that can produce food, gather solar power, and manufacture goods for you, and there is one per household, suddenly the literal definition…
Well, modern capitalism is socialism (the US for example or EU are hardly "free markets", there are all sorts of protections, interventions, tarrifs - hardly a Trump novelty -, things like copyright (another artificial government given restriction on trade and manufacturing, central monetary policy, huge armies and postcolonial negotiations to secure favorable deals, mass surveillance, and so on. And modern socialism…
Many believe those protections you describe is the cause of inequality.
For example,when only 300k/yr physicians can give you access to medicine, it's not capitalism.
Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's certainly true of the Soviet case (the fear instilled by the Stalin years left everyone lying constantly just to avoid the bullet), but Chile was very different. The whole project was to build a genuinely inclusive and worker-led democracy. And they got pretty far with it too, considering they were under economic blockade. We don't get to find out how the story would have ended because the Yanks decided to do…
Well, not everyone . Some people were allowed to live so that an unprecedented era of prosperity unmatched by any other country in Latin America could be ushered in.
... In which most people didn’t reap benefits, as the current protests show.