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Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

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Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#11

Post by sodosopa »

jacknews wrote: post #4
TeMPOraL wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, but I wonder if the way employees organize themselves will transform in such a way to make graph analysis less useful - similarly to how recent protests seem to work. From what I've read about Occupy protests, the Yellow Vests, and now Hong Kong protesters, they're all spontaneous and decentralized. Instead of an individual or a small group of leaders energizing the movement, there's something of a shared…

Indeed, and it seem to me these countermeasures are exactly the method that's being employed by the likes of Putin and Trump. In google's case, I think they're just analyzing employee emails etc.

> In google's case, I think they're just analyzing employee emails etc.

That’s why it’s ill advised to use company email for personal communication. Do it over telegram on your personal devices.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#12

Post by sojmq »

mc32 wrote: post #7
TeMPOraL wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, but I wonder if the way employees organize themselves will transform in such a way to make graph analysis less useful - similarly to how recent protests seem to work. From what I've read about Occupy protests, the Yellow Vests, and now Hong Kong protesters, they're all spontaneous and decentralized. Instead of an individual or a small group of leaders energizing the movement, there's something of a shared…

Have the yellow vests achieved anything? Not that that protests have to achieve major results. Sometimes the main thing is to get exposure so that powers that be realize there is foment that needs addressing (in a positive way, not in a crackdown way).

Democracy is a sham, something to keep the masses in check. In this day and age you won't get shit just by protesting.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#13

Post by ggambetta »

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes.

1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired because the union would rally to support them no matter how in the wrong they are, etc.

2) FAANG-type jobs have to be the cushiest jobs around. I mean, look at http://levels.fyi. Who else gets paid that kind of money right out of college, for doing a very comfortable office job, with a ton of perks on top?

I get that unions might be necessary in industries where workers are actually exploited, to protect said workers. But FAANG engineers are pretty much in the opposite situation. I don't like people creating an us-vs-them situation that doesn't exist, just so they can promote their own politics. As I commented recently, if you don't like it, quit (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21636860), and let the people who go to work to, you know, do work, do it in peace.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#14

Post by 0x445442 »

> They’re part of a three-member Republican cabal

Whatever the merits of the article I have a hard time taking it seriously with this kind of language. If this kind of language were used in the other direction the author would immediately be labeled a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#15

Post by salawat »

Labor organization will always fight an uphill battle without parallel communication infrastructure.

I've been curious whether there could be a niche for cobbling together a dedicated network infrastructure for organizing labor. It'd likely be legally fraught, and constantly under siege; but I figure it could be done.

Tenant based encrypted-at-rest data of chat content and schedules. An onboarding knowledgebase mechanism. These are solved problems. The biggest issue would seem to be screening people for trust to keep the Union's affairs from just finding their way back to management or having someone plant proprietary info to end up blowing the entire thing up via eDiscovery and lawsuits.

It's funny how technology seems particularly useless at solving social problems and usually just serves to exacerbate them.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#16

Post by Porthos9K »

Anybody who's serious about labor organization needs better opsec. Don't talk union on the job. Don't use company equipment to schedule meetings. Don't meet in large groups. Don't post on publicly accessible/searchable networks. Adopt a cell structure.

Management should not know workers are talking union until the workers are organized and on strike. Fuck Taft-Hartley and the NLRB.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#17

Post by icegreentea2 »

ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

There are two ways (optimistic, and cynical) to look at why you would want some form of labour organization, even in a situation like being a google engineer.

The optimistic view is that they believe that Google is a great place, capable of doing great things, but hamstrung by their current environment, and that giving labour a stronger voice will let Google do the great things they believe that Google can and should do. For example, they might see that management is not listening (enough) to rank and file feedback about the viability or need of different options leading to Google's endless parade of chat applications. Or they might think that Google is moving into a realm where their internal politics and decisions will begin to become ever more under public scrutiny, and that cleaning it up will lead to greater public acceptance of Google's goals.

The cynical view is that cushyness can always be removed. It's always labour's interest to lock in the benefits they have. And if you could lock it in, you should.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#18

Post by coldtea »

mc32 wrote: post #7
TeMPOraL wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, but I wonder if the way employees organize themselves will transform in such a way to make graph analysis less useful - similarly to how recent protests seem to work. From what I've read about Occupy protests, the Yellow Vests, and now Hong Kong protesters, they're all spontaneous and decentralized. Instead of an individual or a small group of leaders energizing the movement, there's something of a shared…

Have the yellow vests achieved anything? Not that that protests have to achieve major results. Sometimes the main thing is to get exposure so that powers that be realize there is foment that needs addressing (in a positive way, not in a crackdown way).

>Have the yellow vests achieved anything?

Yes. Quite a lot. The leadership went from not acknowledging their protests, talking down on them and promising to go on with all the reforms, to want to talk, and taking down certain parts of the laws.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#19

Post by ddevault »

ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

It's not entirely about negotiating personal benefits, but also about collective power and being able to have a meaningful say on how the business is conducted. For example, take Google's DragonFly (censored Chinese search engine) incident. Morally objectionable to the engineering staff, but it required internal collective action to stand up against the smell of money in the management's metaphorical nose.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#20

Post by claudeganon »

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting their relations of power to reflect this reality.

So while some tech jobs might be quite cushy, I’ve yet to see any rational or coherent defense of why these (or any) companies should function like dictatorships. It would seems that increasingly, more and more tech workers share this perspective.

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