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Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

nature.com

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Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#31

Post by __s »

username90 wrote: post #24
dr_dshiv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you pay 2x so you could know they had fields and beach balls? Or 1x for industrial cow-cubicles? Be honest now..

That reasoning works just as well for human labor, we could always spend more to help the poor but we don't. At some point idealism hits reality and you have to make a trade-off. And at least I think it is better to give them 1x than 0x. And if some laws comes in saying that meat needs to cost 2x to give them decent conditions then I'd still buy meat. We even already have many such laws, so I'm not sure why people sa…

My primary issue for paying premium for "the more ethical product" is that transparency is lacking, so I can't know whether I'd be only paying more to make myself feel better

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#32

Post by thomastjeffery »

lagilogi wrote: post #2

I keep getting surprised at the inability (refusal) of humans that we are not the only intelligent (and emotional) life form on this planet. It is extremely annoying.

It isn't that we don't believe animals are intelligent. It is that that doesn't define our behavior in the way you apparently to expect it to.

Humans (on the whole) aren't even particularly good to other humans, yet some people seem to have the expectation that humans be particularly good to animals.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#33

Post by usrusr »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #22
username90 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions? I see it like this: Every time I pay for beef I create demand for more cows, thus I help fund little calves playing in the fields. Their lives might be a little shorter than usual, but I don't see wh…

Would you pay 2x so you could know they had fields and beach balls? Or 1x for industrial cow-cubicles? Be honest now..

Not GP, just answering for myself: I definitely would.

But I don't.

Because without making it a full time hobby, it's impossible for me to know that the money will actually be spent on the animals' lifestyle and not on the lifestyle of their owners. Or even more likely, that of some intermediary. Also I don't really know if 2x would even be enough to offset the extra cost given the high efficiency of factory farming. The only practical way is improving minimum standards through regulation. Sorry free market, you are too opaque.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#34

Post by simonsarris »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #6

When I worked in Central Illinois recently, the home my wife and I rented bordered a field where young cows were raised. The small cows seemed to play some sort of game, running around each other like run after the leader. We thought they were playing. Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environment…

> people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions? I would say yes.

You know you're not the only dog owner to say stuff like this, which I've always found odd. I think it's a kind of American exceptionalism writ large into vegetarian(?) thinking, where people see themselves as separate from the circle of life, instead of as someone in a relationship with nature. (Where they consider their pets "separate" and "part of nature" so its OK when they consume meat.)

Pretty much everyone in farming communities knows that animals are intelligent, its the people who are extremely separated that find the odd epiphany. I recommend talking to the farmers next time you're in Central Illinois.

By the way, pasture is good for the environment.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#35

Post by astrodust »

djsumdog wrote: post #8

They're still reptiles though. They can't show signs of empathy or affection like many mammals. Most reptile training is pretty basic, and this experiment fits into those expectations: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NnwIlM6SmiQ

They do show signs of affection and empathy, but it's different, a lot more nuanced and subtle.

If you're comparing them to dogs, which are pack animals where those skills are critical, it's not fair. They project their feelings.

Introverted animals have a lot in common with reptiles.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#36

Post by username90 »

ianai wrote: post #26
username90 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have been able to teach them to do trivial tricks on demand, but we can't teach them to be productive members of society. We haven't even been able to teach a single other species to do factory work, which is the simplest work imaginable for humans.

Dogsledding? Horse riding? People routinely being carried by their horse to help after being incapacitated. Dogs herding all sorts of livestock. I read recently of tool use outside of the apes. I’ve seen blue jays bury and hide things and later recollect. The list goes on and with better examples. Service dogs definitely add value to society.

Animals works well as tools, but they don't work independently. In all of the situations you described there are humans present to direct the work and life of the animal, something you don't need with humans. I'm not sure why we can't get them to work independently, I guess they lack the attention span or the ability to associate the work with the rewards.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#37

Post by username90 »

e2le wrote: post #29
username90 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have been able to teach them to do trivial tricks on demand, but we can't teach them to be productive members of society. We haven't even been able to teach a single other species to do factory work, which is the simplest work imaginable for humans.

Does this count? The Baboon That Controlled a Railway for 9 Years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 Although not factory work this Baboon was a productive member of society being paid in alcohol and a small wage.

It wasn't clear but did the Baboon ever do the work without James being there? I agree it is impressive, but if the monkey couldn't man the position on its own, like doing the work and only getting the beer and pay once a week and no other rewards, then I don't think it counts.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#38

Post by wanderfowl »

Teaching about language in a university setting, we often talk about various forms of evidence for language-like communication among animals.

As I tell students, I would bet that within our lifetimes, as research continues and our instrumentation becomes better at detecting non-human communication means, we'll finally be able to detect and decode 'language' in a non-human animal which is sophisticated and rich enough as to be impossible to handwave away.

But what I keep to myself is that this kind of discovery, and the cross-species conversations it would prompt, has the potential to change the course of the dialogue on animal rights and what it means to be 'human'. But I suspect it will wind up being largely buried outside of certain academic and spiritual communities, mostly because I don't think parts of our society could handle learning the bovine words for 'slaughterhouse' or 'mourning'.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#39

Post by e2le »

username90 wrote: post #37
e2le wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this count? The Baboon That Controlled a Railway for 9 Years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 Although not factory work this Baboon was a productive member of society being paid in alcohol and a small wage.

It wasn't clear but did the Baboon ever do the work without James being there? I agree it is impressive, but if the monkey couldn't man the position on its own, like doing the work and only getting the beer and pay once a week and no other rewards, then I don't think it counts.

I'm not sure it matters if whether James was there or not so long as the Baboon was capable of performing the tasks without instruction from James which multiple sources appear to imply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon)

https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthf...

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#40

Post by friendlybus »

wanderfowl wrote: post #38

Teaching about language in a university setting, we often talk about various forms of evidence for language-like communication among animals. As I tell students, I would bet that within our lifetimes, as research continues and our instrumentation becomes better at detecting non-human communication means, we'll finally be able to detect and decode 'language' in a non-human animal which is sophisticated and rich enough…

Christina Hunger has the ability to ask her dog questions and it goes to press a button that represents the idea it wants to reply with. That button plays an English word through a speaker for Christina. She's a speech pathologist on Instagram and has a website for it. The dog learns word association in the same way babies do.

Those videos are on Instagram, not buried. I'm fairly sure any breakthroughs will make it to a Planet Earth documentary and we'll feel sad about it for a while then go buy beef from the shops anyway.

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