Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers • Hacker News Board

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#21

Post by username90 » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #6

When I worked in Central Illinois recently, the home my wife and I rented bordered a field where young cows were raised. The small cows seemed to play some sort of game, running around each other like run after the leader. We thought they were playing. Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environment…

> Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions?

I see it like this: Every time I pay for beef I create demand for more cows, thus I help fund little calves playing in the fields. Their lives might be a little shorter than usual, but I don't see why a short life wouldn't be worth living.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#22

Post by dr_dshiv » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #21

mark_l_watson wrote: post #6

When I worked in Central Illinois recently, the home my wife and I rented bordered a field where young cows were raised. The small cows seemed to play some sort of game, running around each other like run after the leader. We thought they were playing. Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environment…

> Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions? I see it like this: Every time I pay for beef I create demand for more cows, thus I help fund little calves playing in the fields. Their lives might be a little shorter than usual, but I don't see wh…

Would you pay 2x so you could know they had fields and beach balls? Or 1x for industrial cow-cubicles? Be honest now..

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#23

Post by Scipio_Afri » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #20

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more intelligent than someone with Downs Syndrome, but that doesn't mean their life is less valuable does it? Let me guess: they get a pass because they are human. That's what it comes down to really: things that are like me deserve rights and respect and things that aren't don't. That all humans happen to fit into the "like me" category is a relatively recent concept.

They get a pass because it makes our rules simpler and they are so few. You'd see us quickly value their lives less if there were billions of people with Downs Syndrome, but currently they aren't a problem so it is fine.

>I'd see us quickly value their lives less if there were billions of people with Downs Syndrome, but currently they aren't a problem so it is fine.

Oh you mean like many of those who are homeless, who also happen to have mental health issues, yet we don't provide shelter, health care or food for?

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#24

Post by username90 » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #22

username90 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions? I see it like this: Every time I pay for beef I create demand for more cows, thus I help fund little calves playing in the fields. Their lives might be a little shorter than usual, but I don't see wh…

Would you pay 2x so you could know they had fields and beach balls? Or 1x for industrial cow-cubicles? Be honest now..

That reasoning works just as well for human labor, we could always spend more to help the poor but we don't. At some point idealism hits reality and you have to make a trade-off. And at least I think it is better to give them 1x than 0x. And if some laws comes in saying that meat needs to cost 2x to give them decent conditions then I'd still buy meat. We even already have many such laws, so I'm not sure why people say that we don't care.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#25

Post by sysbin » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

lagilogi wrote: post #2

I keep getting surprised at the inability (refusal) of humans that we are not the only intelligent (and emotional) life form on this planet. It is extremely annoying.

I think it has to do with religion.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#26

Post by ianai » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #17

edgyquant wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define: dumb.

We have been able to teach them to do trivial tricks on demand, but we can't teach them to be productive members of society. We haven't even been able to teach a single other species to do factory work, which is the simplest work imaginable for humans.

Dogsledding? Horse riding? People routinely being carried by their horse to help after being incapacitated. Dogs herding all sorts of livestock. I read recently of tool use outside of the apes. I’ve seen blue jays bury and hide things and later recollect. The list goes on and with better examples. Service dogs definitely add value to society.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#27

Post by dr_dshiv » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #24

dr_dshiv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you pay 2x so you could know they had fields and beach balls? Or 1x for industrial cow-cubicles? Be honest now..

That reasoning works just as well for human labor, we could always spend more to help the poor but we don't. At some point idealism hits reality and you have to make a trade-off. And at least I think it is better to give them 1x than 0x. And if some laws comes in saying that meat needs to cost 2x to give them decent conditions then I'd still buy meat. We even already have many such laws, so I'm not sure why people sa…

I'm not talking about being nice out of naive altruism, I'm talking about the selfish desire for karmic serenity. Sure, we could always act like assholes, but for many of us it doesn't feel good. That was Adam Smith's first book, "theory of moral sentiments", if you are into that sort of thing.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#28

Post by _underfl0w_ » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #25

lagilogi wrote: post #2

I keep getting surprised at the inability (refusal) of humans that we are not the only intelligent (and emotional) life form on this planet. It is extremely annoying.

I think it has to do with religion.

Wouldn't surprise me if this comment gets shadow-banned (i.e. grayed out or whatever its called) or lots of downvotes given how contentious this topic can be, but I think this is actually an important, non-negligible social factor in human decision making for a large portion of the globe. A central tenant of many organized religions is that humans were somehow "created" differently from animals - e.g. in the "image of god" or similar. It helps eschew that cognitive bias and assure the practitioners that they're in the right, given their (clearly limited) understanding of the situation.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#29

Post by e2le » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #17

edgyquant wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define: dumb.

We have been able to teach them to do trivial tricks on demand, but we can't teach them to be productive members of society. We haven't even been able to teach a single other species to do factory work, which is the simplest work imaginable for humans.

Does this count?

The Baboon That Controlled a Railway for 9 Years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24

Although not factory work this Baboon was a productive member of society being paid in alcohol and a small wage.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#30

Post by ModernMech » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

sojmq wrote: post #3

lagilogi wrote: post #2

I keep getting surprised at the inability (refusal) of humans that we are not the only intelligent (and emotional) life form on this planet. It is extremely annoying.

Intelligence is a sliding scale and, until someone proves us wrong, we are the most intelligent life form on this planet. Emotional... well that's something else.

You've really got to define "intelligence" here. I imagine one may point to all the technology we have developed and say "Look how intelligent humans are". At the same time, that very technology is causing a climate crisis that threatens our species. So, how smart are we really?

You want to look at smart, look at house cats. They've got it figured out.