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Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

latimes.com

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Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#141
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why long division would be a mystery. It's just repeated subtraction - you are finding how many times you can subtract the divisor from the dividend, in a systematic way.

Because the algorithm is so astronomically complicated that people can’t see any pattern or reason in it anymore and it becomes an opaque mystery. I have a PhD in computer science but I cannot understand long division.

What?

35/350 (to simplify) Once is 325, twice is 300, X, X, X, we end up at 10 times is 350 divisible by 35.

I'm wondering if I'm missing something (and if I am I'll own up to it lol)

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#142
post #2

I still don't know why long-division works. I don't think I even remember how to do it as an adult. I've always had a very intuitive grasp of math, which meant I excelled at solving things in my head but struggled with (and resented) having to show my work in the arbitrary algorithms we were taught. I understand division despite my education. They really should try to come up with algorithms that are more intuitively…

You should probably read about it as an adult: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_division Children are mostly idiots. Education is the process of painfully breaking them out of their idiocy. Bonus points if you implement a long division algorithm that works on strings in your favorite language.

Children arnt idiots, they are people seeking knowledge. What they need is patience, understanding and slow explanations as they grasp both the concept of what you are saying, the language you use and the minor concepts that you take for granted.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the algorithm is so astronomically complicated that people can’t see any pattern or reason in it anymore and it becomes an opaque mystery. I have a PhD in computer science but I cannot understand long division.

What? 35/350 (to simplify) Once is 325, twice is 300, X, X, X, we end up at 10 times is 350 divisible by 35. I'm wondering if I'm missing something (and if I am I'll own up to it lol)

Lol I can't understand any of that. 'Once is', 'twice is' what does that mean? Once what is what? Twice what is what? You aren't even writing coherent English phrases how am I supposed to follow that?

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#144
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, we have deviations from the mean. They are (0.1, 0.1, -0.1, -0.1). Or we have deviations from the mean (0.2, 0, 0, -0.2). I think is is pretty intuitive that in the second case the deviation is larger. In the first case there are only two differing values that are 0.2 apart. In the second case there are three differing values and some are 0.2 apart and others are 0.4 apart. Also, in the first case there are two…

I still don’t understand why we pick a metric because it’s easy to work with. Isn’t it either the right metric or not?

I think you're right that there is an arbitrariness to this algorithm, and there are other ways of normalizing your data. And you could probably build entire new branches of statistics off of them (like non Euclidean geometry), and they'd probably even be better in some way. But, you'd be speaking a different language from everybody else.

Speaking of language, have you ever thought about how all names and grammatical structures are arbitrary as well? There are parallels.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don’t understand why we pick a metric because it’s easy to work with. Isn’t it either the right metric or not?

The standard deviation is not arbitrary, it tells us what the final normal distribution would look like if you averaged a lot of independent distributions. You can read up on the central limit theorem if you want to understand more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem

I don't want to keep going on because it sounds like I'm trolling, but when you tell me 'it tells us what the final normal distribution would look like if you averaged a lot of independent distributions' I just want to say 'why do I care about that? where did that requirement come from?'

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me what is utterly crucial is to use pie pictures to convince children (and adults...) that 1/2 + 1/3 cannot possibly equal 2/5. If they actually buy this that’s a pretty good inflection point in their education on fractions.

After going though the education of two children who like math very much I realize that fractions on their own are very natural. It is their addition which is not, as it does not have any obvious counterpart in simple nature. I had a math teacher at the university who told us once "there is a neat trick which is normally taught next year but is useless by then and super useful today. Just use it without too much thin…

As a former high school math teacher, chances are you did a disservice to them.

Many kids never "get" fractions, but do remember cross multiplication! And so they use it for anything with a fraction. 1/3 + 4/5=? CrossMiltipy! 1/3 x 4/5=? CrossMiltipy! 1/3 - 4/5=? CrossMiltipy! 1/3 ÷ 4/5=? CrossMiltipy! 1/3 + ? = 4/5 ... CrossMiltipy?

Lots of kids complain about math because there is so much to remember. That's a bad sign because there is so little to remember if you understand the concepts as you can always re-discover forgotten tricks.

In similar fashion, as a little kid, I was not allowed Velcro shoes when learning to tie my shoes. After I showed I could master tying them, then I had the option to go back to the easier Velcro option.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a good point. You know what, it’s way easier to teach how to solve for x when y + x = 3x + 3 and y = 4 than it is to teach long division. As far as I could tell, that basic algebra is also much more important than long division, so why not teach it at an earlier age? The symbology of algebra is probably great for developing minds. Just show long division for “proofs” while introducing the concept of division,…

Some guys in Norway made an app that teaches algebra concepts to 5 year olds using pictures, as the game levels up it slides variables and numbers in.

I saw my nephew play this. It’s a great idea but I found the implementation lacking.

He got stuck on a level where he had to solve a simple equation, and tried to do it in the “wrong” order. He eliminated an unknown from one side first, and then the system wouldn’t allow him to do the type of operation necessary to complete the other side, maybe because that particular technique hadn’t been taught yet. It would have been a perfectly natural way to solve the equation on a blackboard. I could see they probably wanted him to do the other side first.

My nephew tried the same basic approach 3 times in a row, and then gave up and threw the tablet down and went off to play with Lego or something.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#148
post #2

I still don't know why long-division works. I don't think I even remember how to do it as an adult. I've always had a very intuitive grasp of math, which meant I excelled at solving things in my head but struggled with (and resented) having to show my work in the arbitrary algorithms we were taught. I understand division despite my education. They really should try to come up with algorithms that are more intuitively…

It's weird because I was taught long division in primary school that was different to everyone else in class (different maths class). Everyone seems to do some weird subtraction for each digit, whereas I was taught to carry right (i.e almost like how carries work with addition). Way faster, and it works the same all the way to decimal places, no weird remainders. Not sure why that wasn't the standard approach.

[deleted]

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#149
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, we have deviations from the mean. They are (0.1, 0.1, -0.1, -0.1). Or we have deviations from the mean (0.2, 0, 0, -0.2). I think is is pretty intuitive that in the second case the deviation is larger. In the first case there are only two differing values that are 0.2 apart. In the second case there are three differing values and some are 0.2 apart and others are 0.4 apart. Also, in the first case there are two…

I still don’t understand why we pick a metric because it’s easy to work with. Isn’t it either the right metric or not?

Start with the Normal or Multivariate normal. We start with this because it is the distribution that emerges naturally when we have lots of little errors adding up around a basically consistent effect (see also [0]). So basically any situation where something ought to happen but 101 things could also happen to cause small changes will turn out to be normally distributed. An exceedingly common occurrence + one that almost inevitably turns up when dealing with a practical error prone process.

Now that we have a normal distribution, the mean is an obvious metric to pick because it captures the notion of 'middle' in a useful sense. Then we have proofs that we can characterise the normal with the mean and 1 other parameter (normal normal) or a matrix (multivariate normal). We call that the standard deviation^.

The exact formula wasn't a coincidence. The normal can obviously be characterised by the mean and a statistic from another formula. There were a bunch of experiments tried (eg, using |x| instead of sqrt[x^2]) but it turned out that sqrt[x^2] had some other nice property that minimised some sort of error so they went with it as a standard. I forget what one, might be error of estimating the true parameters from a sample or similar.

We could characterise the the normal as an infinite sum or something quirky, but when people say 'easy to work with' they mean instead of a function or something quirky we can simply pick a number.

Standard Deviation isn't as important when working with non-normal distributions, although I think it still turns out to be useful. But its importance is that it characterises a normal apart from the information captured in the mean. I'm not a mathematician, YMMV, could be wrong, standard disclaimers.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem

^ I'm not going to edit this but it occurs to me that we call it the Variance. Same thing as std. dev in my opinion.

' There is a fairly subtle observation to make - Normal is characterised by mean and std. dev, but the most efficient ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency_(statistics) ) unbiased estimator of the std. dev of the population is the adjusted std. dev of the sample. Therefore, accounting for mean, you can't get a more efficient characterisation of the normal than mean & std. dev. Ie, if you picked a formula other than std. dev then the most efficient estimators to characterise it would still be mean and std. dev. Don't recall if there are equally efficient choices but I think that proves there are none better.

That might have been the logic for why std. dev was chosen. Just a guess.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird because I was taught long division in primary school that was different to everyone else in class (different maths class). Everyone seems to do some weird subtraction for each digit, whereas I was taught to carry right (i.e almost like how carries work with addition). Way faster, and it works the same all the way to decimal places, no weird remainders. Not sure why that wasn't the standard approach.

Copied from comment below... Oh :) I just worked it out - I was taught to fold the subtraction and carry right in one step. I'm an idiot!

From elsewhere in this thread I learned that this is actually called "short division"!

I can distinctly remember learning long division as a kid, and I wonder why this isn't immediately taught afterwards as the logical progression

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