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Information Is Physics

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Re: Information Is Physics

#21

Post by Fishysoup »

phkahler wrote: post #12
tux1968 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't disagree with you more. The article referenced by GP mistakes the form for the function. Just because the computer uses different technology than human tissue, doesn't mean it isn't emulating the same ultimate processes that are happening in our bodies. And even if we don't have the correct algorithms in sight today, there is every reason to believe that whatever processes are occurring in our brains and b…

>> which no article or neuroscience education has yet demonstrated. True, but there are some pretty interesting ideas out there. I'm going have to start putting together a list of articles. From the proof that if we have free will, so do particles to some extent. To the notion that quantum computation may happen in the brain. Not saying I believe these things, but the people behind them are pretty smart.

There is no real evidence that we have free will, and the general "suspicion" in the field is that we don't. Yes the brain is made of particles, but their arrangement is very particular and very complex, leaving cognition and all other things the brain does to almost certainly be emergent phenomena. Boiling down to single particles is like trying to reverse engineer a Tesla by focusing on the fact that it has iron atoms in it.

Re: Information Is Physics

#22

Post by dbtx »

alexpetralia wrote: post #7
Agebor wrote: post #5

Theories are now emerging that Universe is running one large bayesian learning algorithm (bayesian inference itself is proven to be an optimal knowledge creation method) See e.g. Bayesian Brain and Universal Darwinism

See also: brain as hydraulics, brain as a system of cogs, brain as a computer.[1] [1] https://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-informati...

> But the IP metaphor is, after all, just another metaphor

With no apologies to the UNIX metaphor of "everything is a file", my favorite starting point for [pretending at] explaining intelligence/understanding/recognition has long been "everything is a metaphor" ;)

Re: Information Is Physics

#23

Post by Fishysoup »

c06n wrote: post #18
Fishysoup wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for this. I spend a non-trivial amount of time telling people working in AI and machine learning (which I also do) that the brain isn't some parameter optimization machine and that analogies from whatever technology or math people are excited about aren't very useful. I wish some neuroscience education and articles like these were some part of the ML canon.

I agree with you that humans are very different from optimization machines in that they have some freedom in what they choose to optimize. Alan Newell made this point a long time ago, back then attempts were made to describe humans in terms of control theory. It works up to a point, but autonomous behavior needs the faculty to set goals independently of pre-programmed optimization points as well as current situationa…

The article is bad, but the point of silly analogies to various technologies remains.

Regarding the questions you addressed, my suspicion is that the brain's primary trick is to model the organism and the environment. Planning ahead, reasoning and synthesizing knowledge can all happen if you can do that. I'd argue (and of course I'm biased) that control theory is probably a better place to start thinking about the brain, in that light, insofar as building models of the world is important.

Re: Information Is Physics

#24

Post by ci5er »

deepnotderp wrote: post #2

For anyone interested in this, the Landauer limit now has experimental evidence. Also, it is now believed that the Margolus-Levitin theorem puts a lower bound on energy even on reversible computations.

Weird. It's new to me that we didn't have experimental evidence before, but I guess it would have to be pretty subtle equipment.

I wish I knew how to catalog/index my assumption/belief set, so I could scrub it down for unverified sub-assumptions from time-to-time. I'm happy to update them, when they are proven wrong, but I don't know how to do this methodically and as a result, my brain fills up with crap. And then I can't trust my own glib reasoning, and then I have to be methodical for anything I need to think through, and that slows me down. And I hate that.

Re: Information Is Physics

#26

Post by adamsea »

ci5er wrote: post #24
deepnotderp wrote: post #2

For anyone interested in this, the Landauer limit now has experimental evidence. Also, it is now believed that the Margolus-Levitin theorem puts a lower bound on energy even on reversible computations.

Weird. It's new to me that we didn't have experimental evidence before, but I guess it would have to be pretty subtle equipment. I wish I knew how to catalog/index my assumption/belief set, so I could scrub it down for unverified sub-assumptions from time-to-time. I'm happy to update them, when they are proven wrong, but I don't know how to do this methodically and as a result, my brain fills up with crap. And then I…

Your brain is not a computer

Re: Information Is Physics

#27

Post by ci5er »

adamsea wrote: post #26
ci5er wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird. It's new to me that we didn't have experimental evidence before, but I guess it would have to be pretty subtle equipment. I wish I knew how to catalog/index my assumption/belief set, so I could scrub it down for unverified sub-assumptions from time-to-time. I'm happy to update them, when they are proven wrong, but I don't know how to do this methodically and as a result, my brain fills up with crap. And then I…

Your brain is not a computer

And yet both of them start to degrade when I spill alcohol on them.

Re: Information Is Physics

#28

Post by bcaa7f3a8bbc »

ci5er wrote: post #24
deepnotderp wrote: post #2

For anyone interested in this, the Landauer limit now has experimental evidence. Also, it is now believed that the Margolus-Levitin theorem puts a lower bound on energy even on reversible computations.

Weird. It's new to me that we didn't have experimental evidence before, but I guess it would have to be pretty subtle equipment. I wish I knew how to catalog/index my assumption/belief set, so I could scrub it down for unverified sub-assumptions from time-to-time. I'm happy to update them, when they are proven wrong, but I don't know how to do this methodically and as a result, my brain fills up with crap. And then I…

There are quite a few things in physics which didn't have direct experimental evidence, while most are convinced because the theoretical results and incomplete evidence are persuasive enough. If this Science article is accurate, there was no direct experimental evidence that proved the majority energy of the Sun comes from the fusion of protons into helium, until the neutrino experiment in 2014.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/08/underground-experime...

Re: Information Is Physics

#29

Post by confeit »

pier25 wrote: post #6

Can someone ELI5 the general concept?

Information is physics: Information (bits) can be viewed as energy. This view allows use of tools and formulas from statistical physics and relate these to information theory (Shannon Entropy == Energy Entropy). It then becomes possible to describe and quantify the information flow between systems, or the thermodynamic cost (heat generation) of computation/flipping bits. It allows for units of measurements such as temperature and pressure to be applied to information.

Physics is information: Energy can be viewed as information. Some researchers investigate the notion of "it from bit": that all of physical reality is the result, and derives its essence, from yes-no bit strings/Turing programs. This view offers answers to the limits of physical inference machines such as the human brain. It leads to the field of digital physics, offering a notion of a computational universe, applying our knowledge of algorithmic information theory, such as the distribution of random strings, to physical reality.

Re: Information Is Physics

#30

Post by ci5er »

bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #28
ci5er wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird. It's new to me that we didn't have experimental evidence before, but I guess it would have to be pretty subtle equipment. I wish I knew how to catalog/index my assumption/belief set, so I could scrub it down for unverified sub-assumptions from time-to-time. I'm happy to update them, when they are proven wrong, but I don't know how to do this methodically and as a result, my brain fills up with crap. And then I…

There are quite a few things in physics which didn't have direct experimental evidence, while most are convinced because the theoretical results and incomplete evidence are persuasive enough. If this Science article is accurate, there was no direct experimental evidence that proved the majority energy of the Sun comes from the fusion of protons into helium, until the neutrino experiment in 2014. https://www.sciencema…

Woah!
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