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Illusory Truth Effect

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Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#31

Post by Merrill »

the_af wrote: post #23
Merrill wrote: post #13

It's particularly effective when combined with "Big Lie". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

I don't follow. The "Big Lie" is a conspiracy theory devised (or at least advocated) by Hitler in order to justify antisemitism. It's not a true phenomenon -- like the Illusory Truth Effect -- but something Hitler falsely asserted the Jews did.

From the wiki reference: >"A big lie (German: große Lüge) is a propaganda technique and logical trick (fallacy)."

It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté.

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#32

Post by the_af »

krapp wrote: post #30
the_af wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. The "Big Lie" is not a cognitive bias, it's itself a lie. It's a myth Hitler either invented or popularized. So I don't follow how it relates to the topic under discussion.

The cognitive bias is the effect of the big lie. Anti-semitism was already prevalent throughout Western culture at that time, and so the lie was easier to believe because of pre-existing cultural prejudice, and later because the propaganda was simply inescapable.

I'm truly not trying to be dense, but the "Big Lie" (according to Hitler) is something allegedly perpetrated by the Jews against Germany's military, by "blaming" it for the downfall of the nation. "The lie" to what you seem to be referring to doesn't seem to be the the "Big Lie" itself but simply antisemitism ("the Jews are to blame"). These are separate things. It requires antisemitism to believe the Big Lie exists and is perpetrated by "the Jews".

From Wikipedia:

> "Hitler believed the technique [i.e. the Big Lie] was used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist and antisemitic political leader in the Weimar Republic."

Maybe we're in violent agreement and I simply misunderstood what you're saying :)

edit: to clarify what I'm saying, there are two uses of "Big Lie" at play:

1- The narrative of "The Big Lie", the alleged lie "denounced" by Hitler. This was of course not a real thing, and Hitler made it up while looking for scapegoats and using antisemitism to blame the Jews.

2- The creation of the "Big Lie" itself by Hitler. This is a real thing, but we have a simple word for it: an antisemitic lie.

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#33

Post by Akababa »

Perhaps this can be rationalized from a Bayesian context. Unless your prior is that you're 100% sure of something (which no one is) and you don't completely ignore what other people say, your posterior will eventually shift to the opposite side.

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#34

Post by kdmccormick »

stareatgoats wrote: post #24
Merrill wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a distinction between logical and quantitative thinking. Some people operate mainly out of a "whether or not" mindset, and they are not inclined to think in terms of "how much", "to what degree", or "how likely". Scientists tend to be quantitative thinkers, although computer scientists are quite often logical thinkers.

Agree in principle, but I have an issue with your use of the terms "logical/quantitative". A pedantic nitpick to be sure, but the "logical" mindset you describe is one of the most prevalent logical fallacies, that of the "false dilemma" [0]. Maybe there are even better ways to describe it than as a logical fallacy, but calling it "logical thinking" leads down the wrong track IMO. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fal…

Maybe "black and white thinking" is what's being described.

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#35

Post by the_af »

Merrill wrote: post #31
the_af wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow. The "Big Lie" is a conspiracy theory devised (or at least advocated) by Hitler in order to justify antisemitism. It's not a true phenomenon -- like the Illusory Truth Effect -- but something Hitler falsely asserted the Jews did.

From the wiki reference: >"A big lie (German: große Lüge) is a propaganda technique and logical trick (fallacy)." It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté.

> "It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté."

At face value, yes. In practice the term is exclusively tied to Hitler's meaning, who coined the term. I'm not even sure if "Big Lie" has ever been used in another context, possibly because the term is a Nazi invention. To be clear, the "mass naïveté" of "The Big Lie" is (alleged by Hitler to be) the populace's, who "believed the Jews" when they claimed (always according to Hitler) that Germany's loss in WWI was to be blamed on Ludendorff. There is no other real-world usage of the term. And we know this Big Lie was itself a lie coined by Hitler, and this alleged conspiracy to exploit the mass naïveté of the people didn't actually exist.

From Wikipedia:

> "The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". Hitler believed the technique was used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist and antisemitic political leader in the Weimar Republic."

and

> "Jeffrey Herf maintains that Goebbels and the Nazis used the big lie to turn long-standing anti-semitism into mass murder. Herf argues that the big lie was a narrative of an innocent, besieged Germany striking back at an "international Jewry", which it said started World War I."

So Big Lie, as a term, is irrevocably linked to the Nazis as its main meaning, is not a "general fallacy", and in fact it could be argued it doesn't describe a fallacy at all, but is itself a fallacy devised by Hitler.

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#36

Post by bananamerica »

Merrill wrote: post #17
teddyh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lawyer’s job is not to actually find out the truth, like a scientist. A lawyer’s conclusion will not be tested by a harsh reality with which you can experiment. A lawyer’s job is entirely to convince other people of things. If people are convinced, the job is done; there are no further repercussions if the truth turns out to differ. Therefore, your lawyer friend likely has never thought about what logic is, or what…

There is also a distinction between logical and quantitative thinking. Some people operate mainly out of a "whether or not" mindset, and they are not inclined to think in terms of "how much", "to what degree", or "how likely". Scientists tend to be quantitative thinkers, although computer scientists are quite often logical thinkers.

I think that's imprecise. The opposition here is not between two kinds of reasoning, but between reasoning and persuasion.

Furthermore, quantitative thinking is itself logic.

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#37

Post by krapp »

the_af wrote: post #32
krapp wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cognitive bias is the effect of the big lie. Anti-semitism was already prevalent throughout Western culture at that time, and so the lie was easier to believe because of pre-existing cultural prejudice, and later because the propaganda was simply inescapable.

I'm truly not trying to be dense, but the "Big Lie" (according to Hitler) is something allegedly perpetrated by the Jews against Germany's military, by "blaming" it for the downfall of the nation. "The lie" to what you seem to be referring to doesn't seem to be the the "Big Lie" itself but simply antisemitism ("the Jews are to blame"). These are separate things. It requires antisemitism to believe the Big Lie exists…

Judging from your other comments here, we may simply be using the same term in different ways - yours being the historically correct one, mine the colloquial one.

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#38

Post by stareatgoats »

mjburgess wrote: post #29
stareatgoats wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree in principle, but I have an issue with your use of the terms "logical/quantitative". A pedantic nitpick to be sure, but the "logical" mindset you describe is one of the most prevalent logical fallacies, that of the "false dilemma" [0]. Maybe there are even better ways to describe it than as a logical fallacy, but calling it "logical thinking" leads down the wrong track IMO. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fal…

He did not claim they were exclusive. Your comment is an example of the fallacy fallacy.

Maybe so but I struggle to understand how, I must admit. In case you would care to elaborate I would be interested.

But unless you will argue that "logical thinking" is the correct term in this case I will submit that you have delivered a faulty argument yourself (since you invalidate my whole comment and not just the relevant part). Not sure which logical fallacy that represents though ...

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#39

Post by lolc »

bananamerica wrote: post #21
lolc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is just the book for him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right

Thanks. But I don’t that’s fixable in my friends case. It’s a long story :P

While I find the book to be written in a sarcastic tone, some people take it at face value. Your friend might be among them and enjoy the read in a very different way.

Choice quote: "and if he emerges victorious from a contest, he owes it very often not so much to the correctness of his judgment in stating his proposition, as to the cunning and address with which he defended it. "

Re: Illusory Truth Effect

#40

Post by golemotron »

the_af wrote: post #35
Merrill wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the wiki reference: >"A big lie (German: große Lüge) is a propaganda technique and logical trick (fallacy)." It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté.

> "It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté." At face value, yes. In practice the term is exclusively tied to Hitler's meaning, who coined the term. I'm not even sure if "Big Lie" has ever been used in another context, possibly because the term is a Nazi invention. To be clear, the "mass naïveté" of "The Big Lie" is (alleged by Hitler to be) the populace's, who "believed t…

When references disagree with you about a definition, it's time to realize that there can be more than one.
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