Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results • Hacker News Board

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#111

Post by sjs382 » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:33 PM UTC

epi0Bauqu wrote: post #92

sjs382 wrote: post #48

No surprise, as both DDG and Blekko disclose that they use Bing for long-tail queries, but it works at both of those engines, too: http://duckduckgo.com/?q=hiybbprqag http://duckduckgo.com/?q=mbzrxpgjys http://duckduckgo.com/?q=indoswiftjobinproduction http://blekko.com/ws/hiybbprqag http://blekko.com/ws/mbzrxpgjys http://blekko.com/ws/indoswiftjobinproduction

They shouldn't be in DDG. That's one of the pieces of intelligence we try to add on top. We try to not "correct" your query. Here's another example of a real search my wife did the other day that illustrates this point on both Google & Bing: http://duckduckgo.com/?q=suttle+renal vs. http://www.bing.com/search?q=suttle+renal vs. http://www.google.com/#&q=suttle+renal

I love that you don't try to correct queries. I hate when Google auto-corrects my query and I need to click another link to get to my actual query. Thanks for that!

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#112

Post by mvandemar » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:33 PM UTC

user24 wrote: post #84

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #50

I had a front row seat for this test. I believe the experiment we ran provides conclusive proof. I'm on a panel with a representative from Bing later today and I'll ask Bing about this directly.

I have a suspicion what you'll find is that Bing use the toolbar to match $current_page_content with $clicked_page_content. When $current_page_content contains obscure words, that becomes the only signal, and so bing's engine will naturally associate it with $clicked_page. In other words, there's a relationship between Page A and Page B if there exists a link beween them (==PageRank). But the strength of the relation…

This makes a lot of sense, and would have be easy enough for Google to test as well, creating some tiny, brand new, never before heard of test search engine that Bing would have no reason to copy, see if the same thing happened.

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#113

Post by encoderer » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:34 PM UTC

51Cards wrote: post #43

executive wrote: post #34

Google scrapes websites to determine search results. Bing scrapes websites (Google) to determine search results. What's the problem?

Look at it like a math problem... Google takes all numbers and figures out the answer itself. Bing writes down the answer from Google's paper. They are hardly the same. Your comment is somewhat like saying "Hey, we're all writing down numbers"

Horrible analogy. This isn't a test. This is a product.

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#114

Post by 51Cards » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:34 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #96

51Cards wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it like a math problem... Google takes all numbers and figures out the answer itself. Bing writes down the answer from Google's paper. They are hardly the same. Your comment is somewhat like saying "Hey, we're all writing down numbers"

This is not a good analogy. An academic environment has different strictures and norms than a business environment. In a business environment, the relevant questions are: 1) does it break any laws? 2) is it profitable? 2b) is it consistent with the image MS wishes to project to its customers and/or regulatory overseers One person's unfair competition is another's brilliant hack.

My comment wasn't meant to reference whether it was wrong or right, just the logistics of what is happening.

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#115

Post by pinko » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:34 PM UTC

jobu wrote: post #32

tptacek wrote: post #6

"Is it illegal? Is it cheating? Is it unfair?" Who cares? Google already got everything it needed out of this situation: a gigantic PR win, and a morale boost for their own team. Well played.

I'm happy for Google. Now can they get back to improving their search results? The changes they made last week ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2152286 ) did help some technical searches, but many results are still being overwhelmed by SEO spammer crap.

Got any good examples? Looks much better to me.

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#116

Post by sjs382 » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:34 PM UTC

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #50

I had a front row seat for this test. I believe the experiment we ran provides conclusive proof. I'm on a panel with a representative from Bing later today and I'll ask Bing about this directly.

Is there a chance this panel is being recorded? I'd love to be a fly on that wall :)

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#117

Post by brudgers » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:37 PM UTC

stanleydrew wrote: post #106

brudgers wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matt, don't Google Toolbar and the Chrome Browser similarly send information to Google for use in improving their services?

If you read the article and other comments here it's been made perfectly clear that the Google toolbar and Chrome browser are not sending similar data back to Google.

I did not say "similar data" because "similar" is a bit too slippery a word in a technical context. There's too much plausible deniablity. What I am asking is if Google's tools send data back to Googleplex to be mined for the sake of search engine improvements.

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#118

Post by sjs382 » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:38 PM UTC

sjs382 wrote: post #116

Matt_Cutts wrote: post #50

I had a front row seat for this test. I believe the experiment we ran provides conclusive proof. I'm on a panel with a representative from Bing later today and I'll ask Bing about this directly.

Is there a chance this panel is being recorded? I'd love to be a fly on that wall :)

Oops, sorry. Found the link elsewhere in this thread!

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2165861

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#119

Post by 51Cards » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:38 PM UTC

encoderer wrote: post #113

51Cards wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it like a math problem... Google takes all numbers and figures out the answer itself. Bing writes down the answer from Google's paper. They are hardly the same. Your comment is somewhat like saying "Hey, we're all writing down numbers"

Horrible analogy. This isn't a test. This is a product.

Actually it is a test, and how well you answer it is directly responsible to how your business will or won't succeed.

Google has worked out their algorithms for processing the incoming data and generating an answer. Bing has apparently used Google's answer as a comparison to whether they are getting it right or not and when not, subbing in the other answer.

While in business this may not be illegal, is it still very much 'Not knowing the correct answer to the test'.

Re: Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying Our Search Results

#120

Post by darrenkopp » Tue, Feb 01, 2011, 4:40 PM UTC

So what? Is it a scandal that Walmart and Target both send employees into each others stores and actively monitor prices on items? It's called being competitive, and to be competitive you have to at least match what your competitor is doing, then beat them.