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RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

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Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#101

Post by teddyh »

new_realist wrote: post #98
pearjuice wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you underestimate the impact of GNU on your daily life. Sure, someone else might have made the same things, but in this timeline RMS did and by removing him, most of the software you are currently using falls apart.

Not true at all. I intentionally use BSD licensed software. Open Source predates GNU and would exist just fine without it.

From what I hear, it was actually RMS who originally convinced the BSD people to release their software, i.e. to create the BSD licence. I can’t remember where I read this, though, and I can’t find it now.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#102

Post by danaris »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #89
vertex-four wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before codes of conduct, it was reasonably common for misogynistic men to get away with poor behaviour towards women in their communities “because they write good code”. I’ve suffered this directly, so have others I’m close to.

> Before codes of conduct, it was reasonably common for misogynistic men to get away with poor behaviour towards women in their communities “because they write good code”. And now they're just as misogynistic, but we don't get to enjoy their code. They're also hidden from view so it's less likely that someone is going to tell them to cut the crap and maybe re-evaluate their world-view. They've essentially been shoved…

> And now they're just as misogynistic, but we don't get to enjoy their code.

I'd rather get the code of all the women who were driven out of tech by their bigotry and hate than whatever they'd write, even if it was legendary golden code spewed forth from the fount of all wisdom.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#103

Post by jachee »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #94
jachee wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like your contributions won't be missed, and that the CoC is working as intended.

I'm confused now. Are you saying A) that OP doesn't have any know-how to contribute to the project, and you deduce that from their political views, or B) that, no matter how much OP may contribute on a technical level, it's meaningless if their political views don't align with yours? In either case, I suggest you stop using the internet. It mostly runs on (GNU/)Linux servers, which were strongly influenced by RMS who…

Rather C) to keep people who think “treating those different from themselves with common courtesy and decency” is a political view, and that technical prowess exempts them from such from getting involved.

If you can’t contribute without being a dick, why would anyone want your contribution?

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#104

Post by jachee »

dbdjfjrjvebd wrote: post #48
jachee wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like your contributions won't be missed, and that the CoC is working as intended.

If by intended you mean driving away reasonable people that want to make software not get involved in politically motivated drama and moral panics then yes.

Reasonable people treat others with respect, humanity and humility.

Reasonable people will have no problem with mandating such treatment of all contributors.

Reasonable people won’t let their ego force them to oppose respectful conduct simply because it’s codified.

Reasonable people don’t believe their technical prowess entitles them to be dicks.

Seems reasonable, eh?

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#105

Post by username90 »

jachee wrote: post #104
dbdjfjrjvebd wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by intended you mean driving away reasonable people that want to make software not get involved in politically motivated drama and moral panics then yes.

Reasonable people treat others with respect, humanity and humility. Reasonable people will have no problem with mandating such treatment of all contributors. Reasonable people won’t let their ego force them to oppose respectful conduct simply because it’s codified. Reasonable people don’t believe their technical prowess entitles them to be dicks. Seems reasonable, eh?

I like that we have a police and I've never committed a crime, but having a police around still makes me nervous since they have a lot of power. CoC's have the same effect, any reasonable person would understand this. They make contributing to a project feel more like a job and less like casual fun, and I don't really see why I would spend my free time doing a job for free.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#106

Post by username90 »

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #89
vertex-four wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before codes of conduct, it was reasonably common for misogynistic men to get away with poor behaviour towards women in their communities “because they write good code”. I’ve suffered this directly, so have others I’m close to.

> Before codes of conduct, it was reasonably common for misogynistic men to get away with poor behaviour towards women in their communities “because they write good code”. And now they're just as misogynistic, but we don't get to enjoy their code. They're also hidden from view so it's less likely that someone is going to tell them to cut the crap and maybe re-evaluate their world-view. They've essentially been shoved…

You don't miss it, when you drive out men they just go and start new projects or companies together where they can be themselves again.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#107

Post by username90 »

devnonymous wrote: post #79
devnonymous wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a wretched, insidious text sneaked in by very bad actors into mainstream open source repositories. Replace text with code and think about how the supposed 'meritocracy' of open source deals with the problem? Isn't 'nobody is stopping you from forking it', 'submit a pull request', 'the community/bdfl has final say', not apply here as well? Or do the benefits of open collaboration stop at code?

Here let me be even more clear for the downvoting-without-commenting cowards : > It's a wretched, insidious *code* sneaked in by very bad > actors into mainstream open source repositories. How would have OSS projects historically dealt with code pushed by someone, which was deemed detrimental/inferior to the overall intent and purpose of the software ? Isn't it the presumption that whatever gets absorbed / pulled in,…

These people said they won't contribute to a project with a CoC, which is exactly what you say they should do. So what is the point of your post? They are already following your advice!

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#108

Post by username90 »

psv1 wrote: post #70
IshKebab wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They go a bit further than that, for example the second result in Google for "open source code of conduct" is this one: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_con... It includes things like: * The use of sexualized language * insulting or derogatory comments * Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting Obviously on the face of it these are extremely re…

Even if we agree with everything in your comment, the question is "Is the <1% of the time this happens a good enough reason the reject every project with a CoC?". Personally, I would answer no to this.

CoC's are inherently political, they say something about the people you have to deal with when contributing to the project. If you like that kind of people you'd see a CoC as a positive, but if you don't like them then you'd avoid CoC's. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#109

Post by DarkWiiPlayer »

jachee wrote: post #103
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused now. Are you saying A) that OP doesn't have any know-how to contribute to the project, and you deduce that from their political views, or B) that, no matter how much OP may contribute on a technical level, it's meaningless if their political views don't align with yours? In either case, I suggest you stop using the internet. It mostly runs on (GNU/)Linux servers, which were strongly influenced by RMS who…

Rather C) to keep people who think “treating those different from themselves with common courtesy and decency” is a political view, and that technical prowess exempts them from such from getting involved. If you can’t contribute without being a dick, why would anyone want your contribution?

> If you can’t contribute without being a dick, why would anyone want your contribution?

I, for one, want it because it's a contribution to open source, and I am pissed at people who feel otherwise and try framing their dumb opinion as more than just that.

Why would you want their contribution? I don't know, it's not my problem, and you don't speak for me. You don't speak for many people. Maybe you speak for a majority of the community, maybe not even that.

At the end of the day, rejecting good code because someone else doesn't like the contributor, that's just dumb and it holds open source back.

> that technical prowess exempts them from such from getting involved

What does one have to do with the other? Just because someone behaves like an asshole doesn't mean they need to be excluded from everything. Assholes can open bank accounts too, does that mean banks somehow agree with them?

My hypothesis, and I have no way of proving this, is that a substantial part (at least 20%) of the people attacking someone elses "toxic behavior" in the programming community are just pissed that they're not as good. Sorry if I'm bursting anyones bubble, but some people just suck at programming. Some people just can't deal with how someone they really don't like is better than them at the skill they identify with.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#110

Post by codezero »

jimnotgym wrote: post #88
sergiotapia wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously it's hyperbole - but a lot of people are definitely put off by coc, myself included. It's a wretched, insidious text sneaked in by very bad actors into mainstream open source repositories.

I submit that all groups of people have a code of conduct. Not all groups write them down.

Very good point. This is similar to the concept of company culture. Every company has one but not all make it explicit.
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