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After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

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41–50 of 157 posts

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#41
post #8

The more I hear about this the more it looks like this entire scheme has turned into a pyramid scheme. Pouring more money into investments to try and boost the valuation. Using previous investments to invest and boost the value of new investments, guaranteeing massive loans in order to get others to invest at huge valuations. It just looks more and more like laundering money through all sorts of different mechanisms…

I want to point out that a lot of these valuations are signed off by well-known accounting firms, valuation firms, and consulting firms. If it's really one big conspiracy to prop up valuations via recent financing, loans, or market comparables, then wouldn't one of these parties call it out (well, inherently a lot of these are paid by organizations to do their valuations, so true independence is a question here). Add…

> a lot of these valuations are signed off by well-known accounting firms, valuation firms, and consulting firms

There isn’t a theoretical foundation for valuing lossmaking companies.

The best we can do is project forward to a cash-flow producing state, where there is good theory, and then discount that value to the present. The projection is essentially guesswork, making homework-checking by valuation consultants somewhat useless.

The only real check is other investors participating. That happened with some of Softbank’s investments, but not with others. (Adding fuel to the fire is Softbank’s habit of shutting down the secondary markets around companies it invests in.)

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#42
post #37

I am wondering, if Saudis really wanted to flush $100bn down the drain, wouldn’t it have been better spent to uplift poverty and reduce hunger ? At least that will give them positive news coverage to offset all the bad news.

Judging by what they’re doing in Yemen, this doesn’t seem like the kind of thing they’re interested in pursuing.

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#43
Wow...finally. This is happening in public companies too btw. Draper Esprit, Scottish Mortgage Trust, Woodford (he was marking up his "genius" cold fusion play all the way...this is real life, 2019, amazing)...the way positions are marked is very suspect, and the general public just doesn't understand (they see NAV as cash in the bank).

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#44
post #12

Easy dumb money like SoftBank is the greatest enemy of innovation and progress. Just take a look at the first deck. Companies like Uber, Softbank, WeWork all having trouble with funding is an important step in our economy

Dear commenters on HN. Don't bite or spite the hand that is feeding you. The recession will come soon enough.

I don't think a smaller number of dumb startups will have much negative impact, considering the huge numbers of highly paid employees the giant "fang companies" have.

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#45
SoftBank: Would you like some money at a $10 billion valuation?

Startup: Sure.

SoftBank: Here you go. Would you like some more at a $20 billion valuation?

Startup: Sure.

SoftBank: Here you go. How about a $40 billion valuation?

Startup: This is dumb but it’s not like we’re going to say no.

SoftBank: Here you go.

Startup: Thanks brb buying a yacht.

SoftBank: Our mark-to-market investment returns are tremendous, we must be good at this.

If SoftBank keeps throwing cash at startups like WeWork, the numbers will start to lose their meaning. [June 14, 2018] - Matt Levine

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-06-14/softba...

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#46
post #8

The more I hear about this the more it looks like this entire scheme has turned into a pyramid scheme. Pouring more money into investments to try and boost the valuation. Using previous investments to invest and boost the value of new investments, guaranteeing massive loans in order to get others to invest at huge valuations. It just looks more and more like laundering money through all sorts of different mechanisms…

I want to point out that a lot of these valuations are signed off by well-known accounting firms, valuation firms, and consulting firms. If it's really one big conspiracy to prop up valuations via recent financing, loans, or market comparables, then wouldn't one of these parties call it out (well, inherently a lot of these are paid by organizations to do their valuations, so true independence is a question here). Add…

The valuation is just an estimate of how much an average investor would like to pay for a share. It's a guessing game trying to predict irrational decisions made by huge and diverse groups of people. Factor in corporate politics and internal competition and you will see that there is no room for reason left.

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#47
post #29
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SoftBank bonds account for half of the bonds sold to Japanese retail investors. Ordinary Japanese savers are going to bet burned if SoftBank collapses.

This is an interesting point. Do you have data / references? I’m very curious about this. I’ll search on my own too.

Cursory searching is revealing:

- Softbank "now responsible for more than half of all corporate and financial debt issuance" in Japan [1]

- Softbank's own bond data [2]

- Seeking Alpha's review of SB's bond [3]

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/24c4a8a8-7885-11e9-bbad-7c18c0ea0...

[2] https://group.softbank/en/corp/irinfo/stock/bond/

[3] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4308627-forget-uber-wework-...

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#48
post #8

The more I hear about this the more it looks like this entire scheme has turned into a pyramid scheme. Pouring more money into investments to try and boost the valuation. Using previous investments to invest and boost the value of new investments, guaranteeing massive loans in order to get others to invest at huge valuations. It just looks more and more like laundering money through all sorts of different mechanisms…

> Pouring more money into investments to try and boost the valuation. Using previous investments to invest and boost the value of new investments, guaranteeing massive loans in order to get others to invest at huge valuations. It just looks more and more like laundering money through all sorts of different mechanisms to create paper gains that don't reflect reality.

Is this uncommon? E.g. I don't have any inside information as to what went on with the Coinbase acquisition of Earn.com, but from an outsider perspective it certainly looks like:

1) A16Z invests tens of millions of dollars in Earn.com, which fails.

2) A16Z has their other portfolio company Coinbase buy Earn.com to shift some of their profits from Coinbase back into their earlier fund. (Which as far as I can tell is not only completely useless to Coinbase, but is also a huge legal liability.)

3) A16Z uses the "success" of their fund with Earn.com to raise more money.

4) A16Z then compensates Coinbase by investing in them at a higher paper valuation.

I could easily be 100% off base so I don't want to libel anyone, all I'm saying is that that's just what it looks like as someone who wasn't privy to the actual details.

Re: After WeWork, SoftBank’s Startup Bookkeeping Draws Scrutiny

#50

There are a lot of VC backed companies that are likely very upside down. You know the types with tons of money raised with very little revenue and little to no profit and an unclear vision on how the entity becomes a real business with a solid profit steam that justifies its valuation. The old model of “it doesn’t matter because we’ll always be able to offload this thing to others and cash out” is dead now. What we’r…

Its not just VC backed companies with this problem, but with publicly traded "investment grade" ones as well[0]…

[0] https://blogs.cfainstitute.org/investor/2019/10/23/anne-wals...

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