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Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

phys.org

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Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#41

Human civilizations have always blossomed in warmer climate. All this scaremongering about global warming ending human civilization and destroying nature is just laughable.

The sociological impact will be immense and likely bankrupt most of the world. We're going to have to move people out of low-lying areas in a pretty short amount of time. There will be billions of refugees but the inland areas don't have the infrastructure or water sources to absorb that many people. There will be food shortages as farmable land becomes inundated or dries up. Wars will happen as desperate people / nations fight over limited resources.

Every coastal city is under threat, and east Asia (where half the world's population lives) is especially vulnerable. I have a feeling things are going to get really, really bad in about 20 years because there's no realistic plan to do anything about it.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#42

If you want to do something as a techie, I would suggest helping out projects like the ones found here: https://github.com/topics/climate-change I would also suggest joining communities like https://climateaction.tech/

It took me a very long time (years) to come to terms with the idea that as a techie I can't do anything to help climate. Tech projects is just an excuse to stay in my comfort zone. A very uncomfortable realization.

Do you not think about living by your values as a matter of integrity?

I don't not steal to stop others from stealing. I don't steal because I don't want to hurt others. If everyone in the world stole, I still wouldn't. If the whole world pollutes, I'm still going to avoid polluting as much as I can.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#43

It seems like they are always saying we are on the brink of some "tipping point." Is there an example of any we have already passed?

It's difficult to appreciate or convey the timescales involved here.

Human activities are pushing atmospheric CO2 concentrations to levels not seen for millions of years.

We've accomplished that in a scant 200 years of fossil fuel use, though with consumption doubling about every 30-40 years, half of the total has occurred since the 1970s.

Atmospheric and oceanic CO2 levels will remain elevated for many thousands of years.

The first awareness of a possible problem seems to have been in the 1850s (yes, the 19th century), and by the early 20th century, the US Naval Research Laboratory was warning of possibly impacts on civilisation. Comprehensive and consistent measurements didn't begin until the 1950s (Charles Keeling and his eponymous curve), and political efforts to address the challenge began in the 1960s. They've been less successful than early activists forecast.

The impacts of climate change not only develop slowly and over time, but through emergent and second-order effects, the full impacts aren't directly forseable. We know that temperatures on average will rise, as will sea levels. Local climactic effects may be above or below those averages. Direct changes include not only temperature but chemistry, and induced effects on ecosystems and human activities, including agriculture and disease. We're seeing long-term trends already in terms of temperatures, sea level rise, shifting climactic zones, changes to forest health, and more. Those are just the harbinger of what will all but certainly be vastly greater consequences playing out over coming decades and centuries.

If it helps: you're in the middle of a train wreck, as a bridge collapses, and the cars hurtle into a fuel storage dump, but are witnessing all of this in super slow motion. What looks like nothing happening is in fact things happening, and most especially approaching critical points at which either it's not possible to roll back to the previous state, much as a block tipped too far doesn't fall back, but continues over, or where behaviour changes dramatically, as the difference between tapping a windowpane and driving your fist through it. Nonlinear responses mean you cannot predict future states based on a steady extrapolation from past experience.

You are in the middle of the emergency -- the emergent situation. The brink lasts a long time, at human scales. On geological ones, this is the blink of an eye, or less.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#44
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I used the wrong word. I was also referring to OP's point that "nature was just fine" - the earth has been up to 12degC warmer than present, before humans could make any impact. My point is that, taken in isolation, a warmer earth is not fundamentally bad, nor new. As for his point about humans preferring warmer temperatures - hopefully that is self-evident. >As far as we know, the loss of arable land caused by t…

A warmer earth with humans on it is fundamentally new, as we've not been around that long. Even forerunner species like Homo habilis only go back three million years. An eye blink in the geologic record, and long, long after the five mass extinctions. 12C warmer would put vast amounts of the land area of the planet outside habitable conditions for humanity. We'd probably be restricted to former arctic regions, and no…

True, it would be new to humans, but (at least initially) it's not fundamentally a problem (please note, I'm arguing in the most theoretical sense here). Large amounts of the equatorial regions are already uninhabitable - it would be interesting to see an analysis of the total inhabitable land loss vs gain for each degree in temperature rise.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#45

It seems like they are always saying we are on the brink of some "tipping point." Is there an example of any we have already passed?

That is the whole point of the article. It lists NINE that the authors believe we have already passed.

No. The list has nine tipping points that the authors are afraid we will pass in the future. From the article:

> Nine active tipping points:

> [...]

> The rainforests, permafrost and boreal forests are examples of biosphere tipping points that if crossed result in the release of additional greenhouse gases amplifying warming.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#46
post #29

It’s important to note that this does not reflect the consensus scientific view: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/11/25... > First, no credible scientific body has ever said climate change threatens the collapse of civilization much less the extinction of the human species. > I asked the Australian climate scientist Tom Wigley what he thought of the claim that climate change threatens civilizati…

The article you link to does not back up your claim about scientific consensus at all. In fact, it's rather biased and bad from that point of view.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#47
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I humbly ask: What are your qualifications that enable you to come to this conclusion? I would be very interested in studying your publications - where can I find your analysis? Also it would be really very appreciated if you would like to publish the datasets that lead you to this conclusion - would you like to give us a public repo with the data, so we can check your results? Thank you very much!

That's not very humble. His assertions are quite basic, and don't need research-grade qualifications to consider. The earth has certainly prehistorically been much warmer, so nature handled it just fine, and it is an interesting question to consider how much more arable land a warmer earth would have.

The earth has also been molten rock at one point too, the issue is can humans survive in that environment, not just the fact the earth is warmer.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Young people are less on board than you think. They're just young and, frankly, haven't thought their proposition through. Once they realize they won't be shuffled back and forth to Europe on multi-million dollar yachts like their leader, they'll change their tune. In fact, once they realize most proposals require them to become serfs living in unheated hovels while the Lords live in mansions and fly private jets eve…

> they'll change their tune Like this guy for example, right? [My hunger strike could be deadly. But I am willing to risk that for climate action] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/27/hunger...

Yeah get back to us when he’s actually dead, which he won’t be.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#49
post #46
post #29

It’s important to note that this does not reflect the consensus scientific view: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/11/25... > First, no credible scientific body has ever said climate change threatens the collapse of civilization much less the extinction of the human species. > I asked the Australian climate scientist Tom Wigley what he thought of the claim that climate change threatens civilizati…

The article you link to does not back up your claim about scientific consensus at all. In fact, it's rather biased and bad from that point of view.

What bias?

> Michael Shellenberger is a Time Magazine “Hero of the Environment” and Green Book Award Winner. He is also a frequent contributor to The New York Times, Washington Post

Additionally, the author cites and links to specific facts in IPCC and UN reports regarding population displacement, sea levels, crop yields, and economic impact.

Re: Nine climate tipping points now 'active,' warn scientists

#50

It seems like they are always saying we are on the brink of some "tipping point." Is there an example of any we have already passed?

> It seems like they are always saying we are on the brink of some "tipping point."

Of course, as soon as someone says “that’s it, science has concluded we’re all fucked” no one will see the value in the various money-shifting schemes that have been proposed to save the earth.

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