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RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

lists.gnu.org

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Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#51
post #7

There is some awful stuff in that thread, like this gem [1]: After microsoft puchased Github, they encouraged "Codes of Conduct". So now 40k "opensource projects" hace CoC's. Obviously men won't be contributing to said projects, other than the people allready in them. [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2019-1...

We won't. You can't force me to contribute to your project and if it has such a coc I just won't.

Most CoCs are like “Thou shalt not kill” or more like “Thou shalt be an asshole”. How is it even possible to not agree with that?

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#52

This guy was my hero growing up because I'm fairly certain that the things the initial community set up is why open source is so common today. But now he needs a handler. My god, man. Get it together.

A handler now? The linked article is classic RMS: pedantic, relentless, and reasoning so nuanced to the point of being indecipherable if not imperceptible to all but the few who have spent countless hours wrestling with RMS' ideas.

If you assume RMS is smarter than you, or at least more analytically rigorous (like a computer)[1], then you'd be hard pressed to find anything RMS has said which isn't consistent with the entire body of his thinking--including his opinions on certain age-related matters and his recognition of and apology for the insensitive manner in which he expressed them. Which isn't to say you would consequentially agree with him, just that his reasoning is about as impeccable as is possible for such insoluble human social issues. You almost always end up having to wrestle with and reject his premises, which can be difficult because his premises are often agreeable on their face. But by doing so you develop and strengthen your own views. RMS is like Socrates, a pacemaker in a race, or the Energizer Bunny--absolutely exhausting, but if you're disengaging then more likely than not you're the one falling behind, not him. Which is fine--the biggest premise of all is that any of this matters, and if you have your doubts it's impossible to match his stamina; just don't pretend like he's the one slowing down or tripping up.

[1] I want to say that one should simply apply the HN rule of assuming the best version of the argument. But RMS almost always puts forth the best version of the argument, at least from a logical perspective, though certainly not necessarily a rhetorical perspective. Thus with RMS the better habit is assuming he's smarter than you, regardless of whether that's true or not, as it forces you to identify and trace the elements and threads of his reasoning, which are invariably present in plain sight.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? I'm very confused. "coc" is a "Code of Conduct" document right? How is that you're opposed to CoC _in general_?

Because reasonable people already know how to behave and don't need a document to tell them. I've never seen a case where a coc improved software.

The Rust compiler. There is your example.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#54
Gate keeping

Imagine doing the wonderful things RMS did in the past, being a hero of both FOSS and software in general. Imagine then being remembered for the ahole tricks that came later instead.

Github opened up both software and FOSS to me. I found projects despite not having a computer science education, not working full time in software, not having a personal network of academic buddies, not using irc. Very occasionally I contributed, and my submissions were taken on the value of the bugs I fixed, despite my lack of reputation.

RMS is a gatekeeping mysogynist pxxxx. He is failing to damage the community despite his best efforts because he has marginalised himself by his behaviour.

Ps. I haven't started a repo on github in a while, but I firmly remember it suggesting you add a license, and linking to explanations of the different licences. Did RMS want them to force it on you?

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#55
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because reasonable people already know how to behave and don't need a document to tell them. I've never seen a case where a coc improved software.

The Rust compiler. There is your example.

What was happening that the coc helped with?

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#56
> GitHub's encouragement of sloppy licensing, no licensing, or licensing under only a single version of the GPL, has done terrible harm to our community.

> GitHub was so bad for free software, all along, that I could imagine Microsoft's making it less bad, or making it more bad. We should judge by what actually happens, not by prejudice.

> Keep in mind that Apple is much worse than Microsoft.

The title this thread "Github has done terrible harm to our community." is a very selective quote.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#57

GitHub probably did more good for the FOSS community than any other project I can think of. Before GitHub, it was so difficult to share code. Solutions available weren't anywhere close. I don't understand why he wants every little piece of software to be open sourced. GitHub was attractive to investors because it had closed source projects that have to pay in order to use it. I don't see how GitHub was going to succe…

If you wanted to use that little piece of code, wouldn't it be better if it was open source? I remember when you could only get exe and projects didnt even think of sharing the code, even if it was just some small project.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

before coc was snuck into these repos, was it just a shitshow of nasty people acting a fool in open source communities? I don't remember it that way.

I recommend you Google the name Linus Torvalds. You will find some truly shocking language directed at his fellow human beings.

[deleted]

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously it's hyperbole - but a lot of people are definitely put off by coc, myself included. It's a wretched, insidious text sneaked in by very bad actors into mainstream open source repositories.

I find that just being a normal, friendly person is enough to satisfy most, if not all CoCs. I've never had to read one, and I've never been in a situation where I was in violation of one.

same but that's not my point at all.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#60
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sure it would work just fine.

It mainly would not exist. Or if it did it would be very different.

What makes you think someone else would not step in instead? There was a similar argument when Ritchie died: "we would not have C, we would not have software". Well, maybe we would not have C, but for sure we would have (and already had) some other programming languages.
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