I sympathize. It used to be that you might be able to believe that there is some kind of art behind go, some sort of abstract beauty to it, and that the pursuit of this beauty is the path to being good at go ... But the defeat of the tactics born from this mindset by MCTS at least for now lay bare the fact that the path to being good at go is actually to probabilistically sample the phase space of the game and perfor…
I’m now curios, can a human design a game that a computer can not beat a human at.
Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
451–460 of 554 posts
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#452I think this is a strange reason to retire and as the article points out it might also simply be due to the legal conflict he is currently in with the KBA. Chess engines have been defeating humans for 20+ years (and are overwhelmingly stronger for a long time), but that hasn't diminished the interest in competitive chess, because the human element of competition and struggle and deep fundamental appreciation for the…
There's nothing strange about becoming demotivated to study and compete at something extremely taxing both emotionally and mentally when a machine can beat you after an illustrious career.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have an opposite view: it's not that shocking that AI has advanced a lot. It's a lot more shocking to learn that humans aren't as great as we hope to be. Also, our prediction sucks. I mean, who said that go is such a difficult problem that it would take a lifetime to solve? Sounds like intellectual arrogance to me. Sure, the problem space is huge, but it's well-defined and homogeneous. There was a time that recitin…
> On the other hand, things like self-driving will remain unsolvable because the problem is fundamentally ill-defined; we don't even know what is a good driving. Humans arrive safe and unhurt (as much as possible, especially while human drivers remain on the road) at their destination with minimal violation of the locality's established rules of the road. No? (Though now that I've written what amounts to a utility fu…
I wish. I've come to the conclusion that the only true rule of the road is: don't crash. As long as no actual collisions occur, people are totally fine with doing whatever they want and bending the rules for their own convenience. I can no longer predict the behavior of other drivers. Even something as basic as the turn signal is unreliable since people are forgetful.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m now curios, can a human design a game that a computer can not beat a human at.
This reduces down to the question of whether it's possible to simulate a brain (or an equivalent formulation, such as is consciousness somehow extraphysical). I believe I'm right in saying current consensus says that this is possible.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#455Earlier quoted context omitted.
The sequences are viable because alpha go assessed state much deeper than humans do. Doesn't mean humans will be able to utilize them correctly.
Nah at least in chess all the grandmasters lean heavily on the chess engines, including studying top games between the best AI
They may use it for training and analysis, but they don't play their style - they play an inferior style (not to dismiss their achievements).
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#456I sympathize. It used to be that you might be able to believe that there is some kind of art behind go, some sort of abstract beauty to it, and that the pursuit of this beauty is the path to being good at go ... But the defeat of the tactics born from this mindset by MCTS at least for now lay bare the fact that the path to being good at go is actually to probabilistically sample the phase space of the game and perfor…
I’m now curios, can a human design a game that a computer can not beat a human at.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#457I sympathize. It used to be that you might be able to believe that there is some kind of art behind go, some sort of abstract beauty to it, and that the pursuit of this beauty is the path to being good at go ... But the defeat of the tactics born from this mindset by MCTS at least for now lay bare the fact that the path to being good at go is actually to probabilistically sample the phase space of the game and perfor…
This is a rationalist opinion that is attractive because it appears unbiased, unwilling to make any concessions to human nature and to recognise its limitations.
And yet- this same opinion overlooks the greatest source of scientific wonderment in the victories of AlphaGo and family against the best human players.
Which is to say: that human players play Go (and Chess, and Poker, and Magic: the Gathering etc) very differently than machines. In particular, human players do none of the extremely tedious, extremely computationally intensive maths that computer players have to do. Human players don't perform MCTS, neither do they train by self-play for many thousands of human-years.
Somehow, humans can play Go and Chess and all manner of board games _without_ having to do any of the hard work that only computers can do reliably. We are not particularly good at those games- but we can play them well enough that beating the best of us still takes huge amounts of computational power.
How we do this, why we are even capable of doing this and what other benefits it confers to us: _that_ is the interesting set of questions. That a big machine can outperform a human ... we have known this since ancient times.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8)Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#458I think this is a strange reason to retire and as the article points out it might also simply be due to the legal conflict he is currently in with the KBA. Chess engines have been defeating humans for 20+ years (and are overwhelmingly stronger for a long time), but that hasn't diminished the interest in competitive chess, because the human element of competition and struggle and deep fundamental appreciation for the…
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#459Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nah at least in chess all the grandmasters lean heavily on the chess engines, including studying top games between the best AI
> Nah at least in chess all the grandmasters lean heavily on the chess engines, including studying top games between the best AI They may use it for training and analysis, but they don't play their style - they play an inferior style (not to dismiss their achievements).
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#460I sympathize. It used to be that you might be able to believe that there is some kind of art behind go, some sort of abstract beauty to it, and that the pursuit of this beauty is the path to being good at go ... But the defeat of the tactics born from this mindset by MCTS at least for now lay bare the fact that the path to being good at go is actually to probabilistically sample the phase space of the game and perfor…
All but the last phrase are still true. Pursuit of Go for beauty is still pursuit of Go for beauty.
I will never play any instrument as well as a sequencer. I believe algorithms will make beautiful Jazz improvisations in real time, in my lifetime. But playing is still beautiful.
I will never run as fast as a horse, much less a bicycle or car. In my lifetime cars will drive themselves more safely and faster than I can drive a car. It will still be enjoyable.
I sincerely hope my children will live better lives and make better choices than I did. My life is still beautiful most days...
It is our attachment to being smarter than machines that makes us unhappy. We fear evidence that we’re not that special. But we do not need to be special to be happy. We do not need to be special to find beauty in our pursuits.
One day, a bot will live on HN and have hundreds of times more karma than I have. It won’t diminish the beauty of my best contributions. Perhaps the humility of seeing this happen will actually make me a happier person.