The Real Class War • Hacker News Board

Re: The Real Class War

#571

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

ls612 wrote: post #430

Bartweiss wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're reading the parent comment in very different ways. I think the key word was seen , just like the quote from the article says the managerial class is still capable of wielding power. Basically anyone in public policy circles, even on the right, should know some labor history. But America hasn't seen a major private-sector strike victory in 20 years, and the 1997 UPS strike was a rare exception: "traditio…

Was the GM strike last month not a victory for the UAW? From what I've read they got most of what they demanded when they started out over the company's initial offer.

Wow, yes it is. You're right, I just hadn't seen the final outcome of that.

It's not a knockout victory, it looks like only 57% of members ratified the new contract, but it's an impressive show of solidarity given how tiered employment has weakened unions. Salaried workers got less overtime, hourly workers got better rates, and temp workers got PTO and full-time opportunities. Plus, post-08 hires will be brought up to pre-08 wages, which has been a concern ever since the bailout.

Even if it's not an overwhelming win, that's impressive news for UAW keeping its influence across a growing range of workers statuses.

Re: The Real Class War

#572

Post by marcusverus » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 8:11 PM UTC

silexia wrote: post #519

flipgimble wrote: post #517

I found it informative to research the author and his background: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Krein For some reason my mental image of the messenger behind the article was that of a well studied and neutral academic throwing out firehouse citations. his points are thought provoking, but it reduces everything to purely economic competition by a delusional population with only the author to cut through the i…

His article shows why we need a wealth tax instead of an income tax... There is a huge difference between a hard working manager making $100k and an equally hard working owner with $10m in assets. I suggest dropping the income tax entirely, and tax wealth under $50k at 0%, $50k - $1m at 1%, $1m - 10m at 2%, $10m - $100m at 3%, $100m - $1b at 4%, and everything higher at 5%. This keeps even billionaires motivated to w…

This would be problematic for people who've paid income taxes for their whole lives and have planned retirement based on the current system. Assume a $1.5M nest-egg and a safe-withdrawal rate of 4% per year. Ignoring capital gains taxes, property taxes, etc, this leaves you with a modest $60,000 retirement income. Based off your proposed figures, that wealth would have a $20,000 annual tax bill, which is 1.3% of the total. Now, since the safe withdrawal rate is 4%, you can only withdraw 2.7% for your retirement income, which leave you with $40,500.

In other words, your 1-2% tax has reduced the passive income by 33%.

Of course, it would be much easier to grow the retirement account without income taxes, which would likely more than offset offset this reduction. For people who have paid income tax and planned their retirements based on the current system, this change would be devistating.

Re: The Real Class War

#573

Post by JMTQp8lwXL » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

noelsusman wrote: post #387

blurbleblurble wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that Hillary Clinton got nominated in 2016. Because too many politicians are completely out of touch with the movements, conditions and perspectives of working people. Where I live, grassroots organizers are doing all the hard work. I'm not talking about protesters. I'm talking about people who are building and connecting organically, who are facilitating workshops and popular education sessions,…

Hillary won working class voters in the 2016 primary by a comfortable margin. +28 with non-college-educated voters and +13 with voters under $50,000 in income.

The primary is not reflective of the general.

Re: The Real Class War

#574

Post by davinic » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #30

roenxi wrote: post #24

What a fantastic article; this might be the high point for my 2019 Hacker News reading. What clarity of vision. It is remarkable reflecting after an article like that on the complete inability of the US political system to organise itself to reward work done rather than access to the super-elite social circles. I'd love to know if this Julius fellow has a take on what mechanisms the 0.1% are using to drive the growin…

> political system to organise itself to reward work done How do you decide which work is valuable and which work isn’t?

It's not about which specific categories of work are valuable, it's about treating labor in general as more valuable than capital. Currently in the US, income from capital is taxed at far lower rates than income from labor. Why?

Re: The Real Class War

#575

Post by albedoa » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

frockington1 wrote: post #531

anigbrowl wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you're trolling or extremely naive. $48k/year ain't shit when a) you'll pay some of that back in taxes and b) in places where you can get $15/hour for retail you also need to shell out $30k/year just to have a small studio apartment.

Shell out 30k/year on a studio apartment? Get off the caosts and explore America. I spend less than 30k/year on my mortgage for a house and pushing carts at Costco will net you 15/hr

All of the retail workers should move to middle America. Good plan, econ prof.

Re: The Real Class War

#576

Post by pvaldes » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

throwawaytoday5 wrote: post #450

bad-joke wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which helps technological change, which leads to a more efficient economy You made a leap of logic here. The technological innovations in finance directly contributed to a more volatile economy that crashed and inflicted massive losses on huge swaths of the global population, many of whom never recovered.

Not too mention, at least in America, the vast majority of American lives are far worst off than they were in the 70s, 80s, or 90s. Making smart phones and personal computers just made rich people richer.

> Making smart phones and personal computers just made rich people richer.

With some positive sides also. Having a free encyclopedia, cheap universal access to educative videos or detailed satellite photos of the whole planet in 70s would have been mind blowing. Being poor today is more frustrating, but the DIY part is much easier, as making connections, and this has also an economic value.

Knowledge is not protected in semi-secretive guilds anymore. The counterpart effect is the disparition of entire sets of steps in the social stair. You can not make a living anymore selling printed maps for example. Poor people could climb, a little, but there is no so many stairs to grasp.

Re: The Real Class War

#577

Post by ForHackernews » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:32 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #274

tvanantwerp wrote: post #159

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “unacceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the working class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and req…

To +1 one this: Having spent a great deal of time consulting to government, in addition to working in media, but with a deep background in tech, the managerial class of people making policy have a revolving door to the universities, which are seized by faddish ideas as often as the elected representatives. Many of these policy people actually come to hate technologists because they find their more chauvinistic plans…

In the context of this article's framing, well-paid tech employees are part of the same managerial/professional class of lesser elites (as distinct from the true elites in the capitalist class, our owners).

It sounds to me like you're allowing aesthetic considerations distract you from your common interests.

Re: The Real Class War

#578

Post by closeparen » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:10 PM UTC

StacyRoberts wrote: post #557

TomMckenny wrote: post #52

It makes sense that the top 10% to 2% become more active as blame and anger are re-routed toward them. For example, many people think the "elite" are the educated but not necessarily the wealthy. So for many, adjunct faculty are called "elites" while the Koch brothers are not. Likewise, discussions of wealth inequality are becoming conflated with income inequality. Yet the professional class has only marginal voting…

The professional class has contributed the most to the wealth gap. We blame the wealthy, but it's not they who are performing the task of wealth extraction. The banks owners don't sign mortgages or repossess homes. The shareholders aren't doing the actual labor that increases page views or patents doodads worth negative value to the poor who buy them and funnel the money up. Owners don't do the taxes that rob society…

Work widens inequality whether or not it’s extractive. Any time you’re creating value, someone else is not, and the difference between the two of you grows.

Re: The Real Class War

#579

Post by closeparen » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:26 PM UTC

aguyfromnb wrote: post #508

larnmar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the working class turns to radicalism what makes you think it will be the kind of radicalism you agree with? It’s more likely to be the kind of radicalism you find terrifying.

> If the working class turns to radicalism what makes you think it will be the kind of radicalism you agree with? This is something I like to mention whenever I see HackerNews talking about revolution. The odds that the "rednecks" from fly-over country (the people with guns) will partner with the California intellectual cognoscenti, who enabled a massive concentration of wealth and built the state surveillance machin…

Hanging out with my gay and immigrant friends, whose lives will probably be in danger if it ever comes to that.

Re: The Real Class War

#580

Post by StacyRoberts » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #578

StacyRoberts wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The professional class has contributed the most to the wealth gap. We blame the wealthy, but it's not they who are performing the task of wealth extraction. The banks owners don't sign mortgages or repossess homes. The shareholders aren't doing the actual labor that increases page views or patents doodads worth negative value to the poor who buy them and funnel the money up. Owners don't do the taxes that rob society…

Work widens inequality whether or not it’s extractive. Any time you’re creating value, someone else is not, and the difference between the two of you grows.

That's not true. We can both be better if I work for you and you pay me right. It's not a negative sum game and can be positive and equal value for both. The value of your cash to me and my product for you.