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Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#201

Post by krick »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #40
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

I think the real reason is that OSM is, practically speaking, not important enough for countries to bother with censoring it.

I find this argument pretty funny, because despite all the borders if you look at Crimea on OSM, it looks Russian alright: cities have Ukrainian spelling on the Ukraine part of the map and Russian on the Crimea.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#202

Post by analyst74 »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

Baidu map shows Taiwan as a province of China wherever you are....which probably contributed to it not being major league.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#203

Post by rovolo »

brutt wrote: post #105
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by “re-gained” independence? They were part of Russia for centuries prior to that. That was them gaining independence for the first time since like the 1500s or so?

Russia doesn't exist now, because it renamed itself into Ukraine, to avoid confusion with bloody Russian Empire. Russian Federation ≠ Russian Empire (doesn't exist) ≠ Russia (now Ukraine) ≠ town of Russia (now Old Russa). BTW. Romania ≠ Rome (now Italy).

What do you mean when you say 'Russia' then? Do you mean the Kievan Rus? That's the only 'Rus' name I see applied to Ukraine on its wiki page. If so, that was 8 centuries ago, and the Russian ethnic group at that time was spread over Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus.

Or perhaps, are you saying that the Russian empire isn't truly Russian because the Romanovs were German?

I get what you're saying about country boundaries and composition changing over time, but it seems like a stretch to call Ukraine the true Russia.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#204

Post by chc »

gsich wrote: post #161
adrianmonk wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth There is an objective truth here, though, that could be shown (if it were allowed). You could show it as disputed. That the dispute exists is an objective truth. The very fact that different states require you to display it differently is proof of that. > presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're comin…

It's not objective though. Countries have arbitrary borders. So if people think those are wrong, who am I to say that they are wrong? So if you take Crimea, for both Russia and Ukraine it's undisputed. Both think it's theirs. For other countries not, making it no longer objective.

You're not saying they're wrong. You're saying that two parties whose opinions you recognize have different opinions on the matter. That's literally what a dispute is.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#205

Post by dmix »

suprfsat wrote: post #186
Razengan wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?

Yes, and 97% of Crimea voted to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

It's interesting that all of the prior polling by relatively politically neutral organizations (UNDP, Razumkov Centre), even dating back to 2009-2011 before the civil war, showed widespread support for at a minimum secession from Ukraine, including multiple polls showing a majority supporting joining Russia (consistently 65% to 70% in favour) yet the whole idea of Crimeans having a voice in their own statehood was rejected outright by the UN and others.

> Razumkov characterized Crimeans' views as controversial and unsteady, and therefore vulnerable to internal and external influences.

It's true the Russian run referendum is probably a very corruptible process and unreliable but there's no clear indication that the majority of Crimeans were actually against the idea. Which IMO should matter more than what the foreign UN diplomats and think-tanks believe is best for them.

> Gallup poll found only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn't accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people.

The other side of it is whether that even matters with in the context of Ukraine's sovereignty and other issues of statehood. Plus referendums should probably not be happening in moments of anarchy. But it's not a good look for the west when trying to win them over by blaming Russian interference while glossing over potentially legitimate local support.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#206

Post by hmage »

DonHopkins wrote: post #99
naz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also exactly what Apple is doing in this situation > The region is now displayed as Russian territory on Apple Maps and Weather, when viewed from inside Russia.

To be fair, Apple should also classify the White House as Russian territory.

There is a White House in russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_(Moscow)

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#207

Post by renjimen »

jmccorm wrote: post #185
yogthos wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a single corporation that has values beyond making a profit.

A nonprofit corporation is one answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonprofit_corporation But if you’re not being literal when you ask about values beyond profit, then as an easy example: Valve. They believe in promoting PC gaming and moving it forward. I think their service (and products) represents that value fairly well, and sometimes at the expense of profit.

Tell that to the CSGO community with the new game-breaking changes (you can buy camoflaged player skins) in the name of profit

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#208

Post by renjimen »

FpUser wrote: post #178
xenospn wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Northern Georgia.

Missed that one. It is a mess in there. But said mess did already happen and I was talking about future. Russia had definitely taken advantage of the situation where 2 regions wanted to separate. The end outlook is not encouraging. I am curious here about one thing here. Government leaders supposed to be smart people. Where did Saakashvili (Georgian president at the time) loose his last 2 brain cells before allowing…

I saw a documentary where the border in Georgia was slowly creeping overnight. Like, they literally move the fence up when it's dark. So, possibly still on-going.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#209

Post by gsich »

chc wrote: post #204
gsich wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not objective though. Countries have arbitrary borders. So if people think those are wrong, who am I to say that they are wrong? So if you take Crimea, for both Russia and Ukraine it's undisputed. Both think it's theirs. For other countries not, making it no longer objective.

You're not saying they're wrong. You're saying that two parties whose opinions you recognize have different opinions on the matter. That's literally what a dispute is.

It is. But not for them. There is no objectivity in country borders.

Apple could show both, but why take a side and care? This would lead to more problems then they care. (China, India, Pakistan are next in line)

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#210

Post by larnmar »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

Oddly when viewed from Australia it doesn’t show our one and only disputed territorial claim, the Australian Antarctic Territory.

I guess Aussies just don’t complain enough to be worth pandering to.

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