It has become more like saying the worlds faster math guy is saying he can no longer beat a computer program.
Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
211–220 of 554 posts
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t think so. AI is a tool. It doesn’t make any sense to say “a screwdriver can now screw things in better than a person” anymore than saying an “AI can diagnose better than any doctor”. The doctors use AI just like a mechanic uses a screw driver.
At some point a person who uses AI doesn't need to be a doctor anymore.
Pareto principle predicts AI will get to 80% fairly rapidly, but it will take a really, really long time to get to 100%.
I think we’ll see a lot of things similar to “AI x-ray technician” fields where people are trained to read AI outputs. Doctors will do higher levels decisions.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#213I don't get it, go to human only competitions. It's like computer generated music, um, like who cares, it's not human. It's just a fun experiment.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#214"The only winning move is not to play." -WOPR (Wargames [movie]/1983)
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>>The fact an AI can express itself through music is sure as hell not gonna stop me from also expressing myself. I think this is the key; if you're making music for your own reasons, no AI (or Mozart) would stop you. But if you're trying to make money at it, or desperately want listeners, you may eventually be on the "losing" side.
Would it? Popular music sees major paradigm shifts every few years, and AIs only really generate things based on observation of existing patterns, at least as far as I can tell. As far as recent examples go, Lady Gaga and Lorde were major breaks from what was prevalent at the time they started releasing music, and then spawned artists trying to emulate them.
It's hard to say - maybe for a sufficiently advanced AI, Lorde's style would be an obvious extrapolation from the popular music of the time. Certainly we're not there yet, and it's an open question if we ever will be - but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if one day AIs can make better music/poetry than the best humans, by any metric we care to use.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've woven this sentiment into my philosophy. I feel computers (and the networks between them) are a natural evolution of our hive mind. When we first started taking spoken language and committing it to writing, we created a hive mind that extended beyond a generation. Prior to that point, everything was passed on through observation of other humans (observing behavior, observing speech, etc.). This meant everything…
I am not a bee. I have no queen. I am not part of a hive, I am a social individual. This hive mind over-simplification is ridiculous and to me: disgusting. As if we were one
The existence of a hive mind (or multiple) does not rule out the existence of individuality (not vise versa), it can be an emergent property of multitudinous individualistic interactions. The degree of influence varies depending on person and subject. We all tend to be conformist in some ways and iconoclastic in others.
We may not be a hive mind, but we may have one.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would counter with the fact that in physical endeavors it's apparent to us that we are not #1 - our household cats are more agile than us. It's in matters of intellect that humans still believe they are #1. AlphaGO's achievement in another field would have similar effects, e.g.: - An AI that diagnoses sickness better than any doctor - An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poet…
> An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poetry created - An AI which creates classical arrangements the likes of which we compare to Mozart Hrm, I do think that AI would be able to create narratives that humans find more enjoyable than the work of other humans, and I agree that AI would be able to create pictures and sound that humans find to be more enjoyable to look at or hear…
> I do think that AI would be able to create narratives that humans find more enjoyable than...
> But what I doubt AI will ever be able to do is create art that speaks to us.
that's confusing.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#218Isn't saying AI is the future of Go like saying cars are the future of sprinting? I mean who cares if machines are faster/better/smarter than us at any particular task? That is true in millions of ways where humans still enjoy competing against each other. Maybe what's needed is just a perspective change where we stop thinking of Go as being against any other agent and make it, like every other human competition, aga…
Another way to look at your metaphor is that research on exercise physiology has shown the enormous importance of rest and proper nutrition during training. Prior to cars, getting from place to place and access to optimal nutrition were both mediated by transport over long distances. AI is the future of Go because it enables those new perspectives and new processes by which human players can learn. AI is smart-dumb,…
> limited by the data on existing human players that has been provided to them.
Except it isn't. In various games, new strategies have been found by playing AI vs AI. It's also possible to create AI players by self-play with no knowledge of human matches.
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#219> Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated Hard for me to empathize with this argument for his retirement. If we can't outrun a car, does that make running competitions pointless? The existence of AlphaGo doesn't diminish the triumph of being a number one human player in any way.
I would counter with the fact that in physical endeavors it's apparent to us that we are not #1 - our household cats are more agile than us. It's in matters of intellect that humans still believe they are #1. AlphaGO's achievement in another field would have similar effects, e.g.: - An AI that diagnoses sickness better than any doctor - An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poet…
Here's something that I think would be exceedingly difficult if not impossible for AI alone to succeed at in the next hundred years.
Take a look at this painting: [1]
It is a comment on war, bravery, death, life, fear, sacrifice. It is drenched in the political and social context of the day.
I really don't see AI coming up with anything even remotely like this independently, and view such an achievement to be much harder than simply diagnosing disease or writing an emotionally moving classical composition. It would be comparable to writing some types of poetry or song lyrics, however, which require reference to context that humans understand but machines don't (yet).
[1] - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/El...
Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players
#220I don't get it, go to human only competitions. It's like computer generated music, um, like who cares, it's not human. It's just a fun experiment.
Exactly. It’s like a weight lifter throwing in the towel because machinery can lift more.