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Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

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Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#141

Post by bobthepanda »

patmcc wrote: post #130
neohaven wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a person who likes music, making it, listening to it, breaking it down and hacking it... Making a classical arrangement that evokes a particular expression in the listener is the job of the musician. If an AI system helps you explore the possibilities there, it's more like a studio musician that's able to improvise. You're still the person, the human, the emotional filter, that picks "This sounds right" or "This d…

>>>The fact an AI can express itself through music is sure as hell not gonna stop me from also expressing myself. I think this is the key; if you're making music for your own reasons, no AI (or Mozart) would stop you. But if you're trying to make money at it, or desperately want listeners, you may eventually be on the "losing" side.

Would it? Popular music sees major paradigm shifts every few years, and AIs only really generate things based on observation of existing patterns, at least as far as I can tell.

As far as recent examples go, Lady Gaga and Lorde were major breaks from what was prevalent at the time they started releasing music, and then spawned artists trying to emulate them.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#142

Post by CalChris »

Magnus Carlsen should give this guy a call. Top chess GMs have been using computers for close to 20 years, particularly in the openings, and that was before AlphaZero. Myself, I never really enjoyed the TCEC games. They're full of disgusting engine lines which make no sense to humans. But AZ has some absolutely beautiful moves.

Still, computers are tools. I'm reminded of Richard Hamming, The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers. I think Lee Se-dol went in the opposite extreme away from numbers to entity. No, there's a middle ground, insight.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#143

Post by ianmcgowan »

padolsey wrote: post #101
eropple wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a world in which provenance cannot be established, the ostensible mortality of the artist becomes moot. This is a real hot take to be asserting as blithe fact.

> This is a real hot take to be asserting as blithe fact. Without knowing what is truly born of human hands, what value can art have? Our heuristics of establishing 'real' art are easy to manipulate. If we are presented with a soul-breaking poem and weep uncontrollably then its merit is regardless of its mortal provenance.

I agree with your point, but especially love the poetic way in which it is made. Very meta...

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#144

Post by Ghexor »

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 wrote: post #131
SchoolboyBlue wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would counter with the fact that in physical endeavors it's apparent to us that we are not #1 - our household cats are more agile than us. It's in matters of intellect that humans still believe they are #1. AlphaGO's achievement in another field would have similar effects, e.g.: - An AI that diagnoses sickness better than any doctor - An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poet…

I don’t think so. AI is a tool. It doesn’t make any sense to say “a screwdriver can now screw things in better than a person” anymore than saying an “AI can diagnose better than any doctor”. The doctors use AI just like a mechanic uses a screw driver.

Good argument and I'm sure it's going to be like that in some regards. I think, though, that human intellect is a tool too and we're building a better one right now. So in your analogy we are the screwdriver and we're building electrical screwdrivers or something.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#145

Post by scarmig »

drdeca wrote: post #80
sorenn111 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No human could successfully beat stockfish on any consistent basis. Maybe the best players in the world would draw a few games with a rare victory, but its tactical depth is just too deep

Can a team of (human + weaker AI) beat (stronger AI)?

It doesn't even need to be a weaker AI. If (human + stronger AI) can beat (stronger AI), then humans still provide value. For now.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#146

Post by chki »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #111
dragontamer wrote: post #35

While I can understand Lee Se-dol's frustration, I think there are better lessons to learn from Kasparov's acceptance after the Deep Blue vs Kasparov matches. Cyborg chess is the future of chess. Period. Chess players use computers to train themselves and explore openings in human-only settings, while programmers / cyborgs play correspondence chess. Go is not finished as a game. A new tool, MCTS + Neural nets, has be…

We should note that Kasparov was actually wrong at the time. Alpha Zero has proved this by smashing Stockfish every time it plays it. The contemporary thinking around chess theory including the measures that DeepBlue would brute-force towards were inherently lossy and nobody figured it hard enough. Technically, at that time DeepBlue could have been beaten by understanding Alpha Zero's theorems before Alpha Zero disco…

>So there was a window between the 90's and today where a human player could have discarded the traditional measuring sticks of "trade-value" and beaten DeepBlue.

I have to disagree: even after the discoveries by Alpha Zero, the best chess players are not able to beat Stockfish. Stockfish is just too good at Brute forcing long tactical advantages. Playing really well positionally doesn't matter a lot if your opponent can look 30 moves into the future.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#147

Post by lern_too_spel »

dragontamer wrote: post #136
lern_too_spel wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Build and configure the machine better. It's a stretch to categorize that as a cyborg player. You might as well categorize any chess program as a cyborg player because a human had to program and train it. The key difference between cyborg/centaur/advanced chess and plain old computer chess is whether there is a human in the loop making the move decisions. My argument is that having a human in the loop will result i…

At a minimum: building the opening book alone will require human intervention. When you build an opening book, you need to pick-and-choose which engines will self play. Will you build an opening book vs Stockfish? Komodo? LeelaZero? If so, how will you generate these LeelaZero games? You'll have to build a computer (or rent one from AWS) to play these LeelaZero games. What are the time-controls of matches? Self-play…

Again, building an opening book does not take place at move decision time. Aside from that, there are several optimization techniques that you can apply to choose the hyperparameters appropriately, but once again, this has nothing to do with cyborg chess.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#148

Post by Enginerrrd »

pasabagi wrote: post #87
SchoolboyBlue wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would counter with the fact that in physical endeavors it's apparent to us that we are not #1 - our household cats are more agile than us. It's in matters of intellect that humans still believe they are #1. AlphaGO's achievement in another field would have similar effects, e.g.: - An AI that diagnoses sickness better than any doctor - An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poet…

I think in all these cases, reasonable practitioners would be pleased. If an AI could generate good diagnoses, a doctor would be happy, because they would know that many lives would be saved. Neither art nor music are competitive activities. Good poetry is a wonderful thing, no matter the source.

>Neither art nor music are competitive activities.

They certainly are! Especially when money is on the line, and the best musicians, actors, and artists are extremely well compensated making their positions extraordinarily competitive.

>Good poetry is a wonderful thing, no matter the source.

Sure, but I think you neglect to consider the defeating feeling it would bring to dedicate your entire life to mastery of a subject only to be completely and utterly, hopelessly outclassed. Almost every such person is already hopelessly outclassed by someone in their field, but those people are so rare that they have tremendous exclusivity surrounding them. Compare that to the scenario of having any 12 year old with a smart phone being able to instantly produce a totally novel and dominate piece of artistic expression developed by an algorithm on their phone. Then recognize that in a world with that level of AI sophistication, there'd be very little of value that a human can even offer other humans at that point. It would be... not great to the psyche, economy, or society.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#149

Post by z3t4 »

jakswa wrote: post #22
grenoire wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What assumptions are you basing this on, curious to know if horses have a disadvantage over longer durations.

My assumption when I read your parent comment was: Two legs are more efficient than four, and can go farther before exhaustion... but that's full of holes. Horses are huge, bristling with energy, right?

Having the weight centered vertically above the legs and a smaller weight is more energy efficient

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#150

Post by zouhair »

neohaven wrote: post #93
SchoolboyBlue wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would counter with the fact that in physical endeavors it's apparent to us that we are not #1 - our household cats are more agile than us. It's in matters of intellect that humans still believe they are #1. AlphaGO's achievement in another field would have similar effects, e.g.: - An AI that diagnoses sickness better than any doctor - An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poet…

As a person who likes music, making it, listening to it, breaking it down and hacking it... Making a classical arrangement that evokes a particular expression in the listener is the job of the musician. If an AI system helps you explore the possibilities there, it's more like a studio musician that's able to improvise. You're still the person, the human, the emotional filter, that picks "This sounds right" or "This d…

You are splitting hair here. Which end user really care about what the composer was thinking when they created a piece. A piece can be enjoyed without having any knowledge of its author.
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