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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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391–400 of 634 posts

Re: The Real Class War

#391

Post by nostrademons »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #77
kingkawn wrote: post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

Agreed. The author is looking through slightly blue tinted glasses. The "working class" put "their guy" in a certain colored house in the US and got together to tell the EU to screw off in the UK. They might not be using their political power for things we all agree with or you could argue they're all being duped but they certainly aren't powerless. Furthermore, I think the author is over stating the homogeneity of w…

American Affairs Journal was actually founded by a conservative nationalist as a pro-Trump journal, designed to "to give the Trump movement some intellectual heft." The editor changed his mind (and his political position) 6 months after the election, after Charlottesville.

I think that what you see here may be some amount of bitterness after watching how events play out and what actually changes. The working class he decries as powerless were his people (he grew up in a small town in South Dakota); it's just that now that we've had 3 years of Trump he sees just how ineffective it's been.

Re: The Real Class War

#392

Post by lbacaj »

Reading this thing is an incredible downer and it makes everything sound black and white. It is literally poo-pooing on everything. Life is never this black and white, although the thesis make for a good read it is still an inaccurate model of the real world.

> Moreover, increasing numbers of engineers, even at the most prestigious companies, are hired on temporary contracts. When the artificial growth model stalls, employees can expect mass layoffs, “anti-hierarchy” propaganda not­withstanding.

As an example, I dont find this to be true at all especially for great engineers. Our company is trying to move completely away from contractors.

Re: The Real Class War

#393

Post by anongraddebt »

jeegsy wrote: post #375
helen___keller wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't really agree with the author on this point, I think the basis of the claim is implied to be the election of Trump. Trump prevailing in the primary (and the general even) could be seen as a referendum of the working class on establishment politics. And yet, what has changed? Trump hasn't brought back American industry as promised, nor has he made a trillion dollars infrastructure package as promised. He…

> occasional anti establishment candidate doesn't uproot necessary structural change The anti-establishment is the bare minimum for structural change to happen. The difficulties that Obama and now Trump have faced in bring change (whatever their version of it), actually make the point more strongly that we need even more out of the box thinking in our leadership.

Underrated comment. This is deeply true, but points to something ominous. There isn't really a way that this political vortex ends except through ever more extreme policies/pendulum swings.

Re: The Real Class War

#395

Post by Infinitesimus »

excursionist wrote: post #166

> But the Valley has never been particularly fertile for the salaried professionals and “engineers” hired by these companies, who even now generally make less than their counterparts on Wall Street or in Big Law. Kindergarten playroom office spaces and other exag­gerated perks often serve to distract employees from this harsh reali­ty. lol

It's always a bit funny and sad when statements like these happen. Most people seem to have _no_ idea how much money Engineers/Product Managers can make at certain companies.

Re: The Real Class War

#396

Post by solidsnack9000 »

nine_k wrote: post #195
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing the utility of work for the worker, and I agree with your description. But work also has utility for the person who pays the worker, and this is extremely different from what you've described. This difference in the utility functions for each party (one wants to maximise the return on work and minimize the work; the other wants to minimize the work and the cost on it) is what sets up most of the "cl…

No, the work done by worker still has a negative utility — it's time spent and salary paid, a clear loss for the employer. The fruit of the work done is what's valuable, thus is what the employer buys from the worker by paying wages, or a slave owner forcibly takes from a slave. This is why an employer is interested in technical improvements: they reduce the required amount of work per unit of the resulting valuables…

The way you are doing the accounting here, it's like the supplies used in manufacturing have negative utility -- they are a cost paid, "a clear loss for the manufacturer".

Work has positive utility when it creates something of value. Considering the money paid for it as coextensive with the work is a mistake because people can work to create value without getting paid, as sometimes happens to unfortunate people. It is no more reasonable to treat the work inputs into a good as having negative utility as it is to treat the money paid for it as having negative value.

Re: The Real Class War

#397

Post by _bxg1 »

anongraddebt wrote: post #390
_bxg1 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "everyone who disagrees with me", it's one very specific point: public intervention - be it healthcare, infrastructure, job training for people in dying industries, workers' rights, etc. - is the only way to stave off the natural gravity of economic stratification. But I've seen more Fox News than most people here probably have, I listened to hours of conservative talk radio in the car with my mom over the y…

A lot of what you say is true, but also applies to the likes of MSNBC and (even) CNN. Raving, frothing at the mouth, 'journalism'. I grew up in a commumity much like the family life you described. Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, etc etc 24/7. There were some non-ideological types who - while staunchly conservative - actually thought through their beliefs. They were the exception. I left and attended an elite school, where..…

I didn't mean to imply that the left is any less emotional and irrational with its beliefs. I find it equally exhausting.

What's special about the right-wing case, at this present moment, is the profoundly self-defeating nature of it. It isn't just dogmatic, it's actively self-destructive.

Re: The Real Class War

#398

Post by solidsnack9000 »

BuckRogers wrote: post #41
kortilla wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> political system to organise itself to reward work done How do you decide which work is valuable and which work isn’t?

> How do you decide which work is valuable and which work isn’t? By viewing the profits generated. As profits are nothing more than unpaid wages.

Profits are the "wages of capital". No one pays companies wages. The owner or owners of a restaurant doesn't have anyone to pay them -- they have to arrange for their to be more in gross receipts than there are expenses or taxes; otherwise, they go under.

Re: The Real Class War

#399

Post by chongli »

buboard wrote: post #368
viburnum wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gay people can get married in America, which was completely unthinkable a generation ago. 100% due to activists, many who risked their lives to make it happen.

The gilettes jaunes are on the streets, nobody cares to make them cultural icons. Gays had very visible and generally disproportionate (compared to population) media coverage of their rights. Was it really 100% due to activists on the street, or very influential but high profile gay people who helped build one of the few successful rights movements of our times?

high profile gay people

When I read this the first person I thought of was Alan Turing [1]. His was the fate of high profile gay people until the grassroots movement sprang from the Stonewall riots [1]. It was these activists who took the first steps to even make it possible for a high profile gay person to come out in public.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

Re: The Real Class War

#400

Post by dantheman »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #247
jschwartzi wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please make your point directly instead of snarking about regulation instead? It contributes little to the conversation if your don’t put forth any arguments or discussion.

I am not a fan of making people guess what the point is, but I thought that dantheman's point was actually pretty clear. It becomes reasonable to suppose that government intervention and regulation play at least a role in the unaffordability crises in education, housing, and healthcare.

Thanks, that is correct. I couldn't edit my comment.
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