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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

301–310 of 634 posts

Re: The Real Class War

#301

What is often forgotten is the hyperdeflation of technology. All your gadges would be worth many millions in pre 2000 dollars. Your car is probably better in many ways than a million dollar car from 1980.

wasnt the hyperdeflation even higher in the 90s when Moore's law still worked? My laptop and phone are both 4 years old and still sellable on ebay.

Re: The Real Class War

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The result has been a pause in income growth in the western world. We've benefited from cheap imported goods, but lost out in domestic growth. Except that's not true. There's been growth; it's just all gone to the very wealthy in the West.

Well, not every western country has horrible income equality. In the US, median disposable income has been pretty flat the past few decades. In Sweden, the median household disposable income doubled in the last 20 years.

Not coincidentally, in terms of rich western countries the English speaking countries have the strongest historical ties to neoliberalism movement of the 80s, e.g. Reagan + Thatcher. See the graph of income inequality in English speaking countries vs non in the OECD since 1910.

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2018/07/Top-Incomes.png

Re: The Real Class War

#303
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read our production has more than doubled since the 90's; wages have not.

How much of that is due to automation? Profit margins are also important, especially in a global economy.

Profit margins take a backseat to citizen welfare in questions of ethics.

Re: The Real Class War

#304
post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

“ We have benefited I think, and we've had opportunities to invest and sell into those markets we wouldn't have otherwise had.”

The we in this case being those who have easy access to capital. Those who have seen their wages stagnate or jobs erased could care less about what happens to the citizens in another country when they themselves struggle to put food on the table.

Re: The Real Class War

#305
post #116
post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

One big problem is GHW, Clinton, GW and Obama said we’d be able to sell into their market and we’d come up on top. That the middle class would see more and better jobs as a consequence (we’d graduate from arduous manual labor into more value add). That’s been nonsense. Perot was prescient and he was right. But we laughed him off the stage. Instead, big biz, some bankers some dealmakers, politicians and other value ad…

Is that quite right? My impression is that it has been half-true, with part of the middle class doing better than ever and rising, while the other part did poorly & lost out. A bifurcation of the middle class.

Which was not unexpected, globalization always has losers. But we've failed to help them out.

Re: The Real Class War

#306

Virtually every problem listed in this article is solved if bitcoin continues its historic rise - and yet you mention bitcoin on hacker news and you're down-voted to oblivion, it really is unbelievable. The "Elites" are getting richer because capital is being used to accumulate more capital through dividends on stocks and revenue producing assets. The only reason money is being funneled into these assets is because t…

There is a pervasive idea in the article that the entire financial-political loop system is rotten, rusty, zombified, unproductive, stagnant, indifferent, overall totally useless. Yes, that makes a good case for a total reboot of the global financial system.

Re: The Real Class War

#307

The story of Rome’s fall is both complicated and relatively straightforward yet it eerily resembles America: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. If all of that sounds familiar, we…

Not to mention they were all poisoned by lead, using it for sweeteners, pipes, and for their chalices and cups.

Not all of them, only the poor.

If I recall correctly, sugar of lead was a poor man's sweetener. The rich could afford honey.

Re: The Real Class War

#308

Virtually every problem listed in this article is solved if bitcoin continues its historic rise - and yet you mention bitcoin on hacker news and you're down-voted to oblivion, it really is unbelievable. The "Elites" are getting richer because capital is being used to accumulate more capital through dividends on stocks and revenue producing assets. The only reason money is being funneled into these assets is because t…

Do you really think the elite would accept any threat to the status quo without a fight? Besides, even if you were to somehow succeed, the scarcity of bitcoin would just be the new elite. Bitcoin ownership is already incredibly concentrated. Meet your new boss, same as old boss.

> any threat to the status quo without a fight

If they are too old and weak to fight, yes. And given the already decades-old, protracted stagnation of wages this will inevitably happen.

Re: The Real Class War

#309
post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

Aren't there billions of people in the world outside of China who can continue to provide cheap manufacturing labor for decades to come? Also automation will begin to pick up any slack left by outsourcing. I don't think the blue collar jobs of the 70's and 80's are ever coming back. The knowledge economy is replacing globalization as the transformative economic force.

In a knowledge economy, the winner takes all, and that means more and more education is required to play in the big leagues, even as the big leagues become the only game in town. I believe only aggressive wealth and income redistribution like universal basic income can prevent a dystopian future of stark inequality.

Re: The Real Class War

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misinterpreted the grammar. "In the West, it's just all gone to the very wealthy" is the intent. Not "All the growth in the world has gone to the wealthy in the West."

"In the West, it's just all gone to the very wealthy" is also a claim that is broad, hard to define, and is empty without evidence. Of course those who pay attention to these sorts of things know that the reality is more complex than that, even if you limit your analysis to "The West," which isn't a unified bloc. See the differences exhibited by the change in income inequality by these nations: https://ourworldindata…

> those who pay attention to these sorts of things know that the reality is more complex than that

Kind of, but the trends are similar if the magnitudes are somewhat different. States with more distributive policies have less inequality, surprise surprise.

> Even if the grandparent was worded too vaguely to communicate the poster's actual point, the grandparent turned out to be making a statement that was too low resolution to actually communicate anything beyond hand-waving anti-Capital rhetorical sentiment.

I guess technically that's true, but it's also not far off. Because the West is back into relatively low growth, capital's influence is growing [2]. When you consider the only way to get capital is income or returns on capital, this is a simple recipe for inequality growing. And it indeed is the likely trend without (again surprise surprise) more redistribution policies [3].

[1]: https://boingboing.net/2017/12/14/oligarchy-on-ice.html

[2]: https://voxeu.org/article/capital-back

[3]: https://voxeu.org/article/new-globalisation-and-income-inequ...

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