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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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271–280 of 634 posts

Re: The Real Class War

#271

Post by username90 »

viburnum wrote: post #258
tvanantwerp wrote: post #159

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­q…

Gay people can get married in America, which was completely unthinkable a generation ago. 100% due to activists, many who risked their lives to make it happen.

Gay marriage was also prevented in America for hundreds of years 100% due to activists. There is no money for or against gay marriage, it was always only activists on both sides so it isn't a good example of a class war.

Re: The Real Class War

#272

Post by ezzzzz »

dcolkitt wrote: post #150
Despegar wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pie may have grown, but aside from labor in the Global South, the people who have captured the gains from that growth have been the capital class in the developed nations (i.e not blue collar workers or the professional class). And no, getting some of your compensation in stock options doesn't make you apart of the capital class, unless you can stop working.

> the people who have captured the gains from that growth have been the capital class in the developed nations (i.e not blue collar workers or the professional class) Wrong. Middle-class Americans have captured gains through cheaper, higher-quality products than would have otherwise existed without trade and development. Are you using a phone made in China, or wearing clothes made in Bangladesh, or eat fresh fruit in…

>Middle-class Americans have captured gains through cheaper, higher-quality products than would have otherwise existed without trade and development.

Cheaper products, sure, but higher quality? Retailers like Walmart and Amazon are essentially operating cartels, they dictate the prices they are willing to pay for manufactured goods. For manufacturers to meet these demands, cuts will have to come from somewhere--cheaper materials, less R&D etc. Consumers may benefit in a cheaper price for their widget, but that widget is not as likely to have the service life it would have in the past. Shorter service life results in buying 'cheaper' goods at a higher frequency (which is likely to result as a net loss for the consumer). This is rhetorical, yes, but not hard to defend. Clothing, appliances, electronics (in price-point verticals) all reflect this 'trend'. This is not even going in to 'Planned-Obsolescence', which is another symptom of the same problem.

Re: The Real Class War

#273

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

danaris wrote: post #185
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but "growth" isn't some physical thing that the very wealthy might have stolen. "All the income growth has gone to the very wealthy" means the same thing as "Income growth has paused, with an exception among the very wealthy".

Except that they have stolen it. Through lobbying and other means, they've gotten the laws changed so that it's much easier for them to hoard vast amounts of money and not be taxed on it (low capital gains taxes, offshore tax shelters, etc). Simultaneously, they've gutted the power of unions, reduced social safety nets, and convinced a huge chunk of America that the ones that are really to blame are other poor people…

I don't think that's a helpful way to look at the issue. You're pointing at real phenomenon, and it probably is true that the policies you're describing disproportionately benefit wealthy people. But there's no point where "they" looked at society and said "hey, let's steal the average American's money so that we can be richer". If you're looking for cartoon villains, you're not going to be able to make progress in the real world, where most people honestly believe the policies they advocate for are right.

Re: The Real Class War

#274

Post by motohagiography »

tvanantwerp wrote: post #159

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­q…

To +1 one this: Having spent a great deal of time consulting to government, in addition to working in media, but with a deep background in tech, the managerial class of people making policy have a revolving door to the universities, which are seized by faddish ideas as often as the elected representatives. Many of these policy people actually come to hate technologists because they find their more chauvinistic plans are thwarted by the privacy and security people who are at the table because of competence that can't be ignored, and not elite credentials.

As a result, the managerialists double down on what makes them different from techs, which means being extra airy, vague, political, and what most working people interpret as untrustworthy. It's practically a shibboleth, as if to say they don't need to seem honest because they are powerful. I don't think this managerial class is as necessary as people who are a part of it think.

The class disconnect is more pronounced in recent years because of the stark differences in physical competence and the precarious status of people who imagine themselves as "elite." What they deride as populism is much more complex than they perceive. Working people expect their elites to at least be somewhat noble, and when they aren't, history is the story we tell about what happens to them.

Re: The Real Class War

#275

Post by ergl »

singularity2001 wrote: post #69

What is often forgotten is the hyperdeflation of technology. All your gadges would be worth many millions in pre 2000 dollars. Your car is probably better in many ways than a million dollar car from 1980.

Now do rent.

Re: The Real Class War

#276

Post by xwowsersx »

anigbrowl wrote: post #237
xwowsersx wrote: post #171

> But it is precisely for these reasons that the working class is unlikely to be decisive in shaping politics for the foreseeable future. However one defines the working class, it has scarcely any political agency in the current system and no apparent means for acquiring any. At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation o…

In a nutshell, public choice theory. Try The Myth of the Rational Voter by Bryan Caplan which explores the phenomenon from a systems standpoint without being especially partisan or ideological.

But does the book look at it from the angle of the working class specifically? Knowing only the broad thesis of that book, I'm not sure it's relevant to the claim made in this article which is about the working class specifically.

Re: The Real Class War

#277

Post by webmaven »

blfr wrote: post #80
kortilla wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For most billionaires the answer seems to be that you buy a moderately upgraded version of all the stuff you had when you were middle class, I don’t think you know what billionaires live like. Either that or the middle class you refer to is something very different from the one in the states. A 150ft yacht that you fly to with your helicopter from an airport you landed at with your private plane isn’t really relata…

A 150ft yacht is exactly the upgraded version of a fishing boat from a 1950s driveway in a newly minted middle class neighbourhood.

But is it a moderate upgrade?

Re: The Real Class War

#278

Post by triceratops »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #249
triceratops wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is theft of trade secrets going to undermine draconian copyright laws? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Two almost completely unrelated wrongs don't make anything.

Trade secrets and copyright are both types of intellectual property. They aren't unrelated.

Re: The Real Class War

#279

Post by candybar »

This is a great article but I think it misses the counterpart to the professional class - moderately well-to-do small-business owners, millionaire next door types. I think these are heavily represented in the top 10%. They are not as well-educated, lean much more to the right than the professional class. Economically they identify more with the 0.1% and consider themselves capitalists, but culturally they identify more with the working class.

These two groups seem diametrically opposed to each other, much more so that they are with the actual elite or with the actual working class.

Re: The Real Class War

#280

Post by [deleted] »

anigbrowl wrote: post #253
frockington1 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there can be more equitable distribution. I struggle with why seizing wealth through taxes is the current war drum being beat. I think the most productive means to making wealth would be stressing the importance of investing and compound growth as part of the high school curriculum. Note: That's where my idea ends right now, I don't have a viable implementation path

Nobody gets rich through starting out with few resources, working diligently, and investing/compounding their wages. It's possible to become financially independent that way if one is smart and lucky, but not rich. By 'financially independent' I mean you can stop working for other people without putting your survival at risk. If you want to be rich you either need to start out with money (giving you bargaining power…

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